Flying with Guns...again

[uscbigdawg]

So with the AWB sunset, anyone know if some of the airlines are going to start tagging the exterior of our bags?

Personally I think that they are too busy with the latest and greatest TSA security advisories to worry about the relatively few firearms that are being checked into luggage, but am curious.

Rich

[JohnL]

So with the AWB sunset, anyone know if some of the airlines are going to start tagging the exterior of our bags?

Personally I think that they are too busy with the latest and greatest TSA security advisories to worry about the relatively few firearms that are being checked into luggage, but am curious.

Rich

The AWB and its sunset had no effect on TSA regulations for the transport of firearms.

[uscbigdawg]

Ummm....the removal of exterior tags identifying firearms contained within luggage was the only positive of the AWB.

With the sunset, my concern is that airlines can now put tags on the outside of bags (obviously if there has been subsequent TSA reg changes, it wouldn't affect it).

Rich

[Precision40]

We flew to the Nationals on American Airlines and we didn't have one problem whatsover. The declaration form is nothing more than a pre-printed form stating that the firearms is unloaded, that is it.

TSA verifies that the gun is in a hard-case then your on your way. The entire process takes about 5 minutes. I wouldn't hesitate to fly with a firearm again. You just need to make it clear up front that you are declaring a firearm as checked baggage.

One thing we did was be very friendly and cooperative to the TSA and airline agents and they responded in kind.

[uscbigdawg]

Doesn't answer the question. I've flown with firearms well over 50 times and haven't had incident one. All though were post-AWB.

I'm not concerned about flying with firearms. Just curious if anyone has heard of any changes since the Federal restriction on carriers tagging our bags had been lifted.

Again, if TSA has taken the mandate from the AWB and made it their policy...great! Just know there is no longer a Federal law restricting it any longer.

Rich

[ErikW]

You sure the no-tag part of law sunset with the bad parts? Might be separate. I didn't even know it was part of the package.

Airline and TSA implementation of policies is still inconsistent. Three of us flew from SFO on the same flight and had three different experiences. Then again from STL. Got my TSA-supplied locks cut off in STL but they didn't cut my cable ties. (They didn't supply replacement locks this time.) It was almost as if the locks were invitations.

Definately the thing to do is get your gun bag examined by them in your presence and then locked and sealed with their "we already been here" sticker. Never had that opportunity until this time around.

[Mistral404]

Flying out of St. Louis was a trip.

Southwest did a good job.

The TSA guy at the front end of the loader (xray machince) asked about the match etc.

But the guy at the rear end had to open my bag, open my gun case--luckily he saw me standing there and asked for the combo. Then proceed to look through everthing.

The guy behind me, did not have to go through any of it.

Such inconsistency drives me crazy!!!!

[uscbigdawg]

You sure the no-tag part of law sunset with the bad parts? Might be separate. I didn't even know it was part of the package.

Airline and TSA implementation of policies is still inconsistent. Three of us flew from SFO on the same flight and had three different experiences. Then again from STL. Got my TSA-supplied locks cut off in STL but they didn't cut my cable ties. (They didn't supply replacement locks this time.) It was almost as if the locks were invitations.

Definately the thing to do is get your gun bag examined by them in your presence and then locked and sealed with their "we already been here" sticker. Never had that opportunity until this time around.

Erik,

My understanding is that it's an all or nothing on the sunset. When a bill expires, all of it is gone. You're right though. The inconsistency is the worst. I haven't had the "pleasure" of TSA or the airlines of opening my bags yet, but I guarantee "my backup gun" (use quote fingers) or some mags were stolen.

For the GA State (last match I flew for) flying out of Oakland was a breeze. Although the security checkpoint (X-Ray) being across the concourse from the ticket desk made the passers by nervous when we started pulling guns out. In both cases (OAK & ATL) were great. No complaints.

SFO is a mystery. It's the only place that actually weighed my ammo (yep...brought too much...by a lot ). No big deal. Just walked the excess to FedEx and overnighted it.

The Sarge (my Dad) and I were just kicking it around over dinner the other night and figured that one my fellow BE board-mates might know or have some news.

Rich

[cruiten]

Got my TSA-supplied locks cut off in STL but they didn't cut my cable ties. (They didn't supply replacement locks this time.) It was almost as if the locks were invitations.

Did you use the TSA approved locks that are recommended if you don't want your locks to be cut by the TSA? Apparently there are several different types of these locks to which the TSA has a master key. This allows them to open the lock and re-lock after the inspection.

I recently flew to Mexico for business and I used these locks for my declared baggage, containing no weapons. When I arrived in Mexico my bag had a sticker on it stating that the bag had been opened and inspected by the TSA, and that they had locked it after their inspection.

In a way I liked how things were handled, but then there is my suspicious side that believes that other people can get their hands on these TSA master-keys...

Cor

[shred]

The tag-inside-the-bag is part of Brady (which didn't sunset) and not AWB (which did). It's still in effect.

SEC. 301. SHORT TITLE.

 

    This title may be cited as the "Federal Firearms License Reform

Act of 1993".

 

SEC. 302. PREVENTION OF THEFT OF FIREARMS.

 

    (a) COMMON CARRIERS.--Section 922(e) of title 18, United States

Code, is amended by adding at the end the following: "No common or

contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other

written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage,

or other container that such package, luggage, or other container

contains a firearm.".

[uscbigdawg]

Shred! You rule!

Thanks for the clarification.

Rich

[D.Hayden]

In a way I liked how things were handled, but then there is my suspicious side that believes that other people can get their hands on these TSA master-keys...

They have some newer locks available now (REI has them), that are TSA approved, and can be opened by them without damage, and they have an indicator, if they were opened or not.

These were combination locks (can't remember if it was a TSA master key access or not)

[kdj]

These were combination locks (can't remember if it was a TSA master key access or not)

I put a TSA approved comination lock on my roll along box, and they did indeed open it with a key selected from a bunch in a draw at the check point.

They still needed me to give them the combination to my not TSA approved gun case though.

In 4 flights in the last 2 weeks my experiences have ranged from:

Having to explain to the lady at the counter that I'd be in violation of the current rules if I actually did what she suggested and having to explain to her what we needed to do;

through

every piece of my luggage being examined in microscoping detail, including the individual rounds in my ammo boxes;

to

Being asked embarrassing questions (like "how did you do at the Nationals") while the TSA agent checked the tag and relocked my bag.

It seems to be very much a case of luck of the draw.

Kevin

[Dalmas]

All airlines (in the civilized world) has to follow the IATA Dangerous Good Regulations on carriage of Dangerous Goods. Almost all civilian ammo (incl all shotgun) is classed as the least dangerous type of explosives in IATA terms 1.4S.

The regulations say that the max allowed per box (if shipped) is 25Kgs then it's up to the airline to set a max / aircraft. If you are to carry it in your luggage the max limit per package is 5kgs (11lbs). The airlines are not allowed to alter these regulations (permit more) but they are free to limit or ban to any extent they want.

In IATA terms our ammo is called

UN0012 Cartridges, Small arms. Class 1.4S

Why all this bs... its always a good thing to have the upper hand on any aiport employee who think they know anything..

[Rob Boudrie]

The regulations say that the max allowed per box (if shipped) is 25Kgs then it's up to the airline to set a max / aircraft. If you are to carry it in your luggage the max limit per package is 5kgs (11lbs). The airlines are not allowed to alter these regulations (permit more) but they are free to limit or ban to any extent they want.

Alaska Air has a 50lb limit, but I've never heard of them requiring it be broken into 11lb packages.

[Dalmas]

The regulations say that the max allowed per box (if shipped) is 25Kgs then it's up to the airline to set a max / aircraft. If you are to carry it in your luggage the max limit per package is 5kgs (11lbs). The airlines are not allowed to alter these regulations (permit more) but they are free to limit or ban to any extent they want.

Alaska Air has a 50lb limit, but I've never heard of them requiring it be broken into 11lb packages.

Don't tell them and concider yourself lucky, most people would love to be able to fly with 50lbs.

From the bible. "provisions for dangerous goods carried by passengers or crew"

allowed as carry on or on person - NO. As checked - YES, approval from carries - YES. Definition:

"Ammunition (cartridges for weapons) for sporting purposes, securely boxed (in division 1.4S), in quantities not exceeding 5 kgs (11 lb) gross wight per person for that person's own use, excluding ammunition with explosive or icendiary projectiles. Allowances for more than one passenger must not be combined into one or more packages"

[Precision40]

Then again from STL. Got my TSA-supplied locks cut off in STL but they didn't cut my cable ties. (They didn't supply replacement locks this time.) It was almost as if the locks were invitations.

Definately the thing to do is get your gun bag examined by them in your presence and then locked and sealed with their "we already been here" sticker. Never had that opportunity until this time around.

I think alot of it has to do with how busy they are. If it's a very busy day, TSA probably doesn't have time to track people down looking for keys, they cut the lock and move on, I'd probably do the same thing. TSA was never really busy when we went through, so they had time to ask for our keys.

When TSA cut your locks, I'm assuming then that your hard-case was unlocked when you picked it up at baggage claim?

[shred]

The regulations say that the max allowed per box (if shipped) is 25Kgs then it's up to the airline to set a max / aircraft. If you are to carry it in your luggage the max limit per package is 5kgs (11lbs). The airlines are not allowed to alter these regulations (permit more) but they are free to limit or ban to any extent they want.

Alaska Air has a 50lb limit, but I've never heard of them requiring it be broken into 11lb packages.

Don't tell them and concider yourself lucky, most people would love to be able to fly with 50lbs.

From the bible. "provisions for dangerous goods carried by passengers or crew"

allowed as carry on or on person - NO. As checked - YES, approval from carries - YES. Definition:

"Ammunition (cartridges for weapons) for sporting purposes, securely boxed (in division 1.4S), in quantities not exceeding 5 kgs (11 lb) gross wight per person for that person's own use, excluding ammunition with explosive or icendiary projectiles. Allowances for more than one passenger must not be combined into one or more packages"

Once more, the IATA rule is for international travel only. Inside the US, airlines like Alaska can use whatever rule they want.

Most of the US airlines wimp out and follow the IATA regulations even in the US (makes their lives easier not needing to work out where you're going), but it's not required.

[bgary]

Once more, the IATA rule is for international travel only. Inside the US, airlines like Alaska can use whatever rule they want.

Most of the US airlines wimp out and follow the IATA regulations even in the US (makes their lives easier not needing to work out where you're going), but it's not required.

A couple of hints:

1) Most airlines have their policy somewhere on their website. Alaska's, for example, is

http://www.alaskaair.com/www2/help/faqs/Sp...elatedItems.asp

United's is

http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6722,1035,00.html

etc. The short version from the FAA's perspective is at

http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/editori...torial_1666.xml

It *can* be useful to print these things out and have them handy when you check in. Having said that, though, in practice every counter-agent seems to have a different idea of what their airline's policy is, and you never "win the argument", even when you have a copy of the airline's own policy in hard-copy to show them (as one agent so eloquently put it, "you have one decision to make: do you want to get on an airplane today, or don't you?")

So, my general mode is to be as patient and professional as I can when dealing with them, be flexible where I can be and instructive where I have to be. At the counter, I generally tell them "I have an unloaded firearm in a locked hard-sided case to declare" - that resonates pretty well with their training. I ask for the "tag" to sign. I put it whereever they tell me they want it - some want it in the suitcase but outside the hard-case, some want it inside the hard-case, etc... I don't really care.

And then I ask to have my bags hand-inspected so that I can see that they are locked when they go on the conveyor. I've never yet had them object to this. As someone else noted, they generally won't let you "touch" your bags after they are inspected, but they don't have any problem with you watching until the bag is re-locked and on its way... and generally seem appreciative that you are interested.

ymmv.

Bruce

[carinab]

Could someone clarify as to what brand names these TSA approved locks are? Eventually I'll need to fly to a match I'm sure. Although, I generally drive to matches because of previous "bad" experiences involving airlines and firearms.

TWA (stands for Totally Worthless Airlines) did a number on me a few years back....Cut my locks on both the suitcase and hard side case, didn't close my ammo case so loose rounds blackened my clothes. And then when my connecting flight was late, they sent my bag ahead without me. When I arrived in DFW, there was my bag, unzipped, halfway open. It'd been riding the carousel for a few hours. I took it to the counter and insisted that the clerk and I open it together to see if anything was missing. Fortunately nothing was gone. However, some nervous Nelly in line went and told a cop that I had a gun at the counter. As I was walking out the door to my ride, I suddenly became one with the pavement and got a pair of nice braclets thrown on me. The clerk backed up my story saying that I was polite but obviously distressed over the treatment of my luggage and I was released. Not fun.

I tend to use small words and quiet tones when dealing with airport personnel. When going to Bend last year, the screener at the gates asked if I had anything sharp to declare. I replied, "only my rapier wit." To which she asked, "Can I see it?"

[kdj]

Could someone clarify as to what brand names these TSA approved locks are?

There are a variety of different brands. They generally have TSA markings somewhere on the packaging (and often a little picture of an airplane too for people who can't read, I assume) and usually a seperate key hole with a TSA<nn> label on it.

I picked up a couple of TSA approved combination locks at the WalMart in Quincy ... and did see them opened at the St. Louis Airport.

Kevin

[Dalmas]

Once more, the IATA rule is for international travel only. Inside the US, airlines like Alaska can use whatever rule they want.

Most of the US airlines wimp out and follow the IATA regulations even in the US (makes their lives easier not needing to work out where you're going), but it's not required.

Oh what was I thinking!!! like everything else in the international community it's not applicable for the US..

[davidwiz]

Samsonite, among others, make TSA locks. Goto a deparment store or a luggage store. They have a red TSA'ish symbol on them and on the bottom, a keyhole and a TSA key code (so the TSA knows what key to use to open the lock). The combination lock that I got was like $12 from Macys.

-David

[bgary]

If you do a search for "TSA luggage lock" on amazon.com, you'll see a variety of them. You can get them starting at about 5 bucks each.

I actually use *two* things. I use a TSA-friendly padlock on my suitcase, so they can open it if they have to. *AND* I use a plastic wire-tie (alternatively, could use one of the "luggage seal" flags, or some other disposable-but-you-have-to-cut-it-off-to-open-it thing) so that I can tell at a glance whether they *have* opened it or not.

Bruce

[JohnL]

The tag-inside-the-bag is part of Brady (which didn't sunset) and not AWB (which did). It's still in effect.

SEC. 301. SHORT TITLE.

 

    This title may be cited as the "Federal Firearms License Reform

Act of 1993".

 

SEC. 302. PREVENTION OF THEFT OF FIREARMS.

 

    (a) COMMON CARRIERS.--Section 922(e) of title 18, United States

Code, is amended by adding at the end the following: "No common or

contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other

written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage,

or other container that such package, luggage, or other container

contains a firearm.".

Yep, not the AWB. They still can not tag your bags on the outside.