Loading A Holstered Pistol?

[SoonerPast]

Is there a rule against removing the mag from a holstered pistol, in order to top it off and then, inserting the full mag in the pistol while it remains holstered, and a round chambered? Subject came up at our Tues night match. It seems awkward to me, but we had a couple of new guys who wanted to load to full capacity in that manner.

[j2fast]

Don't know for sure if there's a related rule but for the most part folks either top off the gun with a single bullet (Barney bullet) or put a mag in, cycle the slide to pick up a round, and then insert a another full mag before the pistol is holstered. Someone smarter than me will come along....

The second one is what I do, I just keep an mag on the back of my belt just for chambering one round before I insert a full mag all during the load and make ready command.

Edited January 11, 2007 by j2fast

[Lee Bell]

Don't know for sure if there's a related rule but for the most part folks either top off the gun with a single bullet (Barney bullet) or put a mag in, cycle the slide to pick up a round, and then insert a another full mag before the pistol is holstered. Someone smarter than me will come along....

The second one is what I do, I just keep an mag on the back of my belt just for chambering one round before I insert a full mag all during the load and make ready command.

Mine's in my right side rear pocket.

Lee

[ima45dv8]

Is there a rule against removing the mag from a holstered pistol, in order to top it off and then, inserting the full mag in the pistol while it remains holstered, and a round chambered? Subject came up at our Tues night match. It seems awkward to me, but we had a couple of new guys who wanted to load to full capacity in that manner.

Sooner,

There is no restriction against topping off while holstered. The RO who raised the issue was working from some distant memories of days when such practices were not allowed.

[AikiDale]

Is there a rule against removing the mag from a holstered pistol, in order to top it off and then, inserting the full mag in the pistol while it remains holstered, and a round chambered? Subject came up at our Tues night match. It seems awkward to me, but we had a couple of new guys who wanted to load to full capacity in that manner.

No rule to prohibit it, and, a new shooter has less to fumble with if the pistol is holstered, assuming more traditional carry leather. I was taught to do this as a safer way to top off long ago. However, the first time I did it in a race holster that wasn't locked the pistol hit the ground. Lesson learned.

[Nemo]

But why would you top off while hosltered? I can see it for a second, third and subsequent strings of a multi-string stage... Again, BUT WHY? To start you have the LAMR, load the barney and then your second mag. Finish first string, BEFORE HOLSTERING, remove mag, insert a fresh one and holster.

Because there is no rule against it, doesn't mean it makes sense. Some of us just like making things harder than what they really are.

Edited January 11, 2007 by Nemo

[BSeevers]

Some tacticians teach to reload that way and its legal but I think wrong to do.

You are going to be drawing and shooting in a couple seconds so I think its safe to pull the gun out. What I see is you might not seat the mag and have the famous one draw, one shot as your mag hits the ground. Yes you can not fully seat a mag the regular way too but I think its more reliable to pull the gun out and seat it firmly with your weak hand. Course checking it by pulling on it is a great idea.

[AikiDale]

But why would you top off while hosltered? I can see it for a second, third and subsequent strings of a multi-string stage... Again, BUT WHY? To start you have the LAMR, load the barney and then your second mag. Finish first string, BEFORE HOLSTERING, remove mag, insert a fresh one and holster.

Because there is no rule against it, doesn't mean it makes sense. Some of us just like making things harder than what they really are.

Ain't it the truth.

The practice comes from teaching the defensive use of the pistol to new shooters, especially in a group, not as a reasonable thing to do during a sporting event.

But to answer your question, new shooter puts a magazine in the pistol and racks the slide. He then puts the safety on and places the pistol in the holster; remember this is a full coverage sturdy piece of leather. Now that the pistol is relatively safe from the shooter putting his finger on the trigger, he may still hit the mag release, withdraw the mag, top it off and replace it all without handling the gun. This routine is usually accompanied by announcing each step of the process as it is performed.

Why? In short it is a convenient, safe, consistent way to behave in a group of beginners with loaded weapons.

[Nik Habicht]

Why? In short it is a convenient, safe, consistent way to behave in a group of beginners with loaded weapons.

Yup, and it's also a practice that points the muzzle of said gun at the ground at the shooters feet, at best. (Yes, I read that part about carry leather and the trigger being covered.) I prefer to have the double redundancy of the gun in the shooter's hand pointed at a berm, more than three feet from the muzzle, while firearms are being manipulated. Again, that's my preference, and I can't really do much, other than ask for that, when I R.O......

[ima45dv8]

No rule to prohibit it, and, a new shooter has less to fumble with if the pistol is holstered, assuming more traditional carry leather. I was taught to do this as a safer way to top off long ago. However, the first time I did it in a race holster that wasn't locked the pistol hit the ground. Lesson learned.

The same RO who had these concerns Tuesday night told me it was a 12.05 violation. When I asked what is a 12.05, he said that's the section of the rulebook covering Unsafe Gun Handling. I gently explained he was about 3 rulebooks behind the times.

He did enlighten me to the origin of the now-defunct restriction, though. It's like Dale said. Back when race holsters were just starting to become popular, someone at the Nationals went to top off and knocked their loaded gun out onto the ground while pounding the magazine back into their holstered pistola.

[tnpyeron3]

This is the way my department has always taught new recruits and veterans to load thier pistols for duty.

I always load my duty gun the same way: Lock the slide open, insert mag, give a pull, slide forward, decock, holster, remove mag, top off, reinsert and give it a pull. Hell, it's like second nature at this point in my career.

I think it also comes from shooters not having a barney mag at their disposal and/or using 10 round mags and this is an easy way to top off.

[konkapot]

Agreed; that's the way many departments teach it. We called it an "admin load."

Much safer and smarter (from an Instructors perspective) to keep the guns in holster....particularly with new(er) shooters.

Pretty difficult for a gun go off while it's in a duty holster. Even for a recent academy graduate....or a detective. Or a lieutenant.

FY42385

[rishii]

When I started in the 80's, we all topped off our guns like that, load the 1st one in, holster, pull the mag out, top off and reinsert in the gun. but that was back in the days of holster being made out of dead animals. and the holster test if I remember correctly also included a 360 degree forward roll.

the story I heard regarding the rule stopping doing that, was a shooter had an AD in the holster. I don't if the safety was off, or a gun malfuction, but the story goes, he put the mag in his holstered gun and it fired.

[Badkarma]

As I recall the 1911 was the main reason for this "safety" norm ( not a rule because it was a common practice that many people knew). In the early days of the sport, with the use of army surplus parts to do "action" jobs, it was possible to have a disconnector, sear and trigger so out of spec that they protruded into the magazine well. Load the chamber, holster and slam in a magazine... bang. Never seen it happen, but was warned about it at my first RO class.

I'm sure that with today's precision parts and expert gunsmithing most 1911 pattern guns won't have this problem, but some habits are hard to break.

[RePete]

It's easier (and safer) to load the gun, remove the mag, holster, top off mag, unholster, insert mag and re-holster.

I personally use a stripper mag.

[Chris Keen]

I agree with RePete. Load 1 round, remove mag, then holster. Then you can use both hands to top off that mag, or find your full mag elsewhere ......... THEN you can pull the gun out again, and seat that mag firmly into the gun. Then holster again.

There is nothing that says you cant holster / draw the gun MORE THAN ONCE before the beep.

[maineshootah]

I agree with RePete. Load 1 round, remove mag, then holster. Then you can use both hands to top off that mag, or find your full mag elsewhere ......... THEN you can pull the gun out again, and seat that mag firmly into the gun. Then holster again.

There is nothing that says you cant holster / draw the gun MORE THAN ONCE before the beep.

+1

From the RO's perspective, I would rather SEE someone loading the gun in their hands so I can assess skill value of the shooter (if they are nervous, talktative, questioning) and be available to answer questions rather then watching them fumble with the gun the in holster dropping the mag release and then try to top off with a full mag.

I see seen several cases of: draw, first shot bang, second shot "click" due to the mag not seated all the way.

[RePete]

I see seen several cases of: draw, first shot bang, second shot "click" due to the mag not seated all the way.

Or the mag drops out as the first shot is going off. But that is the operators fault for not seating the mag properly.

[Punkin Chunker]

Don't know for sure if there's a related rule but for the most part folks either top off the gun with a single bullet (Barney bullet) or put a mag in, cycle the slide to pick up a round, and then insert a another full mag before the pistol is holstered. Someone smarter than me will come along....

The second one is what I do, I just keep an mag on the back of my belt just for chambering one round before I insert a full mag all during the load and make ready command.

Using a barney mag: +1

Using a barney bullet: strong possibility of a broken extractor

[Overkill]

I was taught the holsterd top off in a class. I like it a lot and use it both in matches and CCW. Push till it clicks, pull to make sure its seated, and sweep between the gun and your body to make sure you havent trapped a shirt tail in the mag well.

[FranDoc]

I've done the holstered top-off while a student in class. This has been in intermediate-level classes, not when I was a newbie. While standing around listening to instructions for the next drill/evolution, it's much more discreet to pop the magazine, top it off, then re-seat the mag. You're not waving the gun around in a crowd.

Obviously the instructors see what I'm doing and none have advised me to stop. In fact, I've seen them do it as well.

Note that this is during ('tactical', self-protection, or CCW Instructor) skills refinement training, NOT competition training. Most of the instructors have been LEO, not IDPA/USPSA competitors. I'm noticing from some of the prior posts that there may be a difference in approach between the two.

[ifulks]

This is absolutely a "tactical" vs "sport" difference. Topping off in holster or "admin load" is very common in police/tactical training. Remember most defensive users don't carry a Barney mag. Loading in one certain way is good from a continuity stand point but I've never had a problem with doing a drawn gun top off in the right environment. For tactical-type classes on a "hot range" topping off safely is best done while in the holster or after a string of fire. This is a perfect example of gear/mission dictating tactics. I think a "tactical reload" or "load with retention" is a better way to do business so you don't have to go swinging away at your holstered pistol to seat the mag but it is still of no use during a break in the action on a "hot" range. I tend to get kinda excited if students pull their guns while I'm 'splaining stuff in front of the line.

[swede]

As I recall the 1911 was the main reason for this "safety" norm ( not a rule because it was a common practice that many people knew). In the early days of the sport, with the use of army surplus parts to do "action" jobs, it was possible to have a disconnector, sear and trigger so out of spec that they protruded into the magazine well. Load the chamber, holster and slam in a magazine... bang. Never seen it happen, but was warned about it at my first RO class.

I'm sure that with today's precision parts and expert gunsmithing most 1911 pattern guns won't have this problem, but some habits are hard to break.

That's the same explanation I got when I started 13 years ago. Even if that's just an "old wives tale", it still makes sens to me to insert the magazine and then holster. There's less chance of not having the mag seated all the way.

Swede

[maineshootah]

It's easier (and safer) to load the gun, remove the mag, holster, top off mag, unholster, insert mag and re-holster.

I personally use a stripper mag.

+1

I have seen a few "non seated mags" with this "insert the mag in the in gun in the holster maneuver".

Then shooter draws, fires once and the mag falls out.