The Correct Shotgun

[BSeevers]

I don't own a Glock.

Pause WORLD CRASHES TO A STOP

I do own everything else listed and take my Race 1100 to trap shooting and really disturb the regulars. Next is Sporting clays.

(Edited by BSeevers at 9:01 am on Sep. 3, 2002)

[EricW]

Ray,

I'm really sorry if I caused you any lack of confidence in your purchase.  I didn't realize you had already done the deed when I shot my mouth off.    

Keep in mind, that if you ever want to go three gunning, the 1100 will take you there.  Because of the gas system on the Beretta, it cannot accept an extended mag tube.  

I hope whatever you do works out well for you.

E

[RayB]

1100 Gone.I now have the 391 .Have not used it yet but you guys were right it comes with everything you need much more for your money.cost me about $125.00 more then the Rem.Now lets see if I can hit a clay.Thank you all .Eric I have no Idea what 3 gunning is all about will have to check into it

[tightloop]

Hope you love your Beretta like I love mine and my sons love theirs.  Let us know how you do.

[EricW]

Ray,

You will be happier - especially 50,000 rounds from now after your 391 is still snicking away flawlessly.

Happy Dusting!

Eric

[kellyn]

Now I want a 391 too!

[EricW]

Kelly,

If you want to see a damning indictment of how good the 390/391's are firsthand, head to the clays range at Ben Avery and rent one.  (only 5 bucks, such a deal!)  I'm not sure they've cleaned any of those guns ever - and they all still run.  It's just freakin' amazing.

E

[benos]

On the Flush and Flurry events at the Sportsmans Team Challenge, (Three guys shooting 50 targets in a VERY short period of time. You're basically reloading the gun and shooting targets as fast as you can manipulate the gun), the big decision was to shoot your auto, which might jam, totally blowing your team out of the race, or your O/U, which was a tad slower to reload but might actually work. In the latter years, I shot my O/U on all the events, just because I liked it better. Which made me feel very confident.

be

[tightloop]

Just as the Ghost Dog says, it is what you have confidence in that matters.  I shoot my O/U for the same reasons Brian mentioned, I like it, and it has never let me down.  That is what is great about the US, if you don't like chocolate, you can get vanilla or strawberry.

[EricW]

You're killing me Brian!  How am I supposed to buy that new loader from you if you keep goading me into buying an O/U?  

Now it's a freakin' need!

[RayB]

OK I used my 391 1st time I hit 23 out of 25 .This is on a Pratice Trap Range Slow and easy.The Gun preformed

as expected very little recoil. Next time out I will move to the regular Trap Range.Can you guys or gals talk a little about Chokes this gun came with 5 chokes.

Which is best to use for what?Thanks Ray

[tightloop]

Glad you like it.

Man, you opened the proverbial can of worms here.  first I would suggest you get a copy of the tape by Gil Ash and Jerry Meyer called Chokes and Loads.  It is intended to help you understand chokes and loads when shooting clays, but it will help you know what to use and when, no matter what you are using, for any kind of shooting.

If shooting trap at 16 yds, most shooters use 1 1/8oz  of 8's with a modified choke.  This combo should be good back to about the 20yd line.  Farther back most go to 7 1/2's with mod choke to about the 24 yd line and farther back still go with full choke and 7 1/2's.

Again it is personal preference and how tight a pattern your gun throws with various chokes.  If you want to find out what it throws, go to a sporting goods store and get some patterns to tack to the pattern board at your range.  12 gauge guns are patterned at 40 yds.  back up to 40 and start with the most open chokie you have and fire a round at the center of the pattern. It should show you where your gun patterns, and the density for that choke and load.  Most trap shooters want the gun to shoot high with the pattern about 12 inches above  the center and skeet, clays and 5 stand usually want the gun to pattern as close to center as you can.  Trap is a specialized game and most trap shooters float the bird above the barrel while they let the shot go.  They get to see the bird break that way and it has become the standard for trap guns.  If you don't want to alter your gun to do that, just remember to blot out the bird as you let the shot go.  It is more versitile to leave it alone and blot out the bird when you shoot trap.  Clays shooters don't seem to have as hard a time adjusting to other shotgun games while still shooting their clays gun as do trap shooters do regardless if they try to shoot their trap gun or go to another one.

I have a friend in Nebraska who is an AA trap shoter.  He came to Houston and I took him to shoot clays.  Used my extra 682 clays gun and I told him the hold point on each target, but old habits are hard to break.  He broke 46 out of 100 while his national trap average is about 97/100.  Also shot some trap with Bobby Fowler and Scott Robertson; they used their clays auto, and they shot94 and 95.  Years ago I used to shoot skeet, long run of 656, also shot lots of trap, long run of 254, but high at clays is 91.  Hope this helps, and get a copy of that tape.  

Gil is on the web at http://www.ospschool.com I think.

(Edited by tightloop at 12:00 pm on Sep. 7, 2002)

(Edited by tightloop at 12:01 pm on Sep. 7, 2002)

[EricW]

Ray,

My experience with my 391 is that it patterns tight.  IC might be a good choice, but with scores like yours, the MOD may be the ticket.  IC gives me solid hits out to 30-35 yards.  Past that it starts getting sketchy.

E

[RayB]

Eric/Tightloop

You guys are a wealth of information and I Thank You All  as do the other Lurkers .

So here we go again the 391 comes with Choke tubes

0(*) = Full , 00(**)=IM (improved Modified) ,000(***) =

M (Modified), 0000(****)=IC(Improved Cylinder),

C0000(C****) = CL Cylinder,SK(Skeet Beretta)(2)=SK(Skeet)  So how would these chokes differ say at 25 to 35 yards?I just want to have a Good unterstanding of How these work.Thank You

[tightloop]

To complete the information you seek may take several posts, but we will start with the basic things which will give us the foundation to get to where we need to go.

For this discussion we will begin with the objectives of every shotgunner and why there are different chokes and loads.  The idea is to have your gun throw  a pattern of pellets which cover the target, which is a 30" circle at 40 yards so that there are no holes through which a clay bird or game bird can fly without getting hit with enough pellets to either be broken or killed.  This objective is obtained by using the proper chokes and load for various ranges with various loads (pellet sizes).  I won't confuse the issue by telling you that the pellets do not arrive at the target all at the same time and really form a shot string sometimes over 10 or 12 feet long, because that is only pertinent if the target is a crosser perpendicular to the line of sight.  Trap and most clays shots are basically away so the shot string does not apply, in any event, we will not discuss it here or now.

The 30" circle was chosen as the optimum target size because a shotgun is pointed and not aimed unlike eithere a pistol or rifle, and some margin of error is allowed.

Also understand that in clay bird sports there is no Golden BB and that it takes a minuimum of 3 pellets to fracture or break a clay bird in combination with the rotational forces or the forward momentum on the clay.  Again the idea is to hit the target with as many pellets as we can without having our pattern have holes through which the bird can fly w/o being hit or not filling the 30" circle completely.  The typical percentage of pellets which arrive within the 30 " circle at 40 yards with the various chokes are as follow:

Cylinder, no constriction = 25 to 35%

Skeet, 30 to 35%

Improved Cylinder, 35 to 40%

Light Modified, 40 to 45%

Modified, 45 to 55%

Improved Modified, 55 to 65%

Light Full, 60 to 65%

Full, 65 to 70%

XFull, 70%+

These are the usual chokes found in todays shotgunning.  The usual chokes are cylinder, skeet, IC, mod and full.  I show the others because each gun is a law unto itself and until you actually shoot and see for yourself what kind of patters your gun thrown with each choke and load ( see my previous post) you don't really know which of the chokes I mention you really neeed or will use most.  My personal favorite in my gun is Light Mod because it patters very uniformly with most loads I shoot and keeps that pattern consistency for more than 10 yards like most chokes, but every gun needs to be patterned to see how it reacts with each individual load and choke combination.

Hope this helps and if you need more info let us know and we will try to get it to you.

[tightloop]

As an addendum to my last post, I forgot to tell you that the constrictions for each choke is as follow:

Cyinder, none

skeet, .005

IC, .010

Lt Mod, .015

Mod, .020

Imp Mod, .025

Lt Full, .030

full, .035 and xfull .040

these constrictions are standard through out the industry, but what varies and what makes each gun with each choke a law unto itelf is what else is going on with either the gun or the choke, or both.  The barrel can have modifications to it such as lengthening the forcing cones and backboring the barrels, and even the choke construction can have an impact on patterns depending on how long the parallel constriction within the choke is, how smooth the transition from barrel to choke is and how smooth the choke itself really is.

it isn;t really all that hard, just like getting your Open Pistol dialed in!!!

[EricW]

Ray,

I did spend a little time at the patterning board with my 391.  Unfortunately, my pattern targets are 350 miles away right now, so I'm doing this from memory.  But, as I recall, damn near 100% of my pellets landed in a 30" circle at 25 yards with an IC in my 391.  How that translates to 40 yards, I don't have a clue...  

Really, you do need to find a patterning board.  This is important for getting stock fit/ POA issues resolved too.  The range near me let me have my way with the thing for $1 a sheet (probably their cost).  You need to see what your load/choke combo does for you.  

Personally, I would stick to IC for skeet (most people think I over choke for skeet, but I'm happy) and most SC use , and drop in the MOD for the longer stuff - 40+ yards.  Much to my surprise, I haven't found much of anything on a typical SC range where I can't make the IC choke work in the 391.  When I get my gun mount issues resolved, I might buy a Briley Light Modified and put it in the gun and leave it there.

E

[tightloop]

It is important to know where your gun patterns, but sometimes we make too much about the use of screw in chokes, ie. George Digweed from England won the first of his several World Sporting Clays titles with a gun that had screw in chokes, but the ones he had in the gun were rusted in and could not be removed.  He won the world title with IC and Mod same as a lot of fixed choked gun used to be.

[dv8]

Hey guys,

Another newbee here. I just tried skeet and trap shooting a few days ago and got hooked. I went to Galyans today and looked at few guns. Didn't like the feel of Verona O&U, liked some Beretta and Benelli autoloaders and then they showed me the Benelli Sport 2. I think I am in love. It looks great, it jumps right to my sholder, and feels very natural. It was also very light - is it more of a good thing or just the opposite? I suppose lighter gun will recoil more, but it swings better, doesn't it? Also, this is a recoil operated loader, can you educate me on this one: reliability, cleaning, recoil, e.t.c.?

Oh, and after that I tried the Remington 1100. I didn't like it a bit, to say the least.

[EricW]

Hey guys,

Another newbee here. I just tried skeet and trap shooting a few days ago and got hooked. I went to Galyans today and looked at few guns. Didn't like the feel of Verona O&U, liked some Beretta and Benelli autoloaders and then they showed me the Benelli Sport 2. I think I am in love. It looks great, it jumps right to my sholder, and feels very natural. It was also very light - is it more of a good thing or just the opposite? I suppose lighter gun will recoil more, but it swings better, doesn't it? Also, this is a recoil operated loader, can you educate me on this one: reliability, cleaning, recoil, e.t.c.?

Oh, and after that I tried the Remington 1100. I didn't like it a bit, to say the least.

The lighter guns are better for field use than for sporting. I shoot a stock 391, which is very light. When I get back into it, I plan to put on a forend weight to cut down the whippiness. Some extra weight also helps cut the recoil.

Personally, I'd see if I could rent that Benelli for a while before plunking down that kind of cash. Unless you add weight to it, it's really going to beat you up on the clays range. And unless Benelli's done something new, it's not going to like reduced recoil loads w/o some modifications. Stock Benellis generally only like hot loads.

I'm not saying it's the wrong gun, but you might try a Beretta for a round or two just to see what a soft shooting gun feels like in comparison. If you ever plan to shoot 3-gun, the Benelli is the only gun you should consider buying, however.

[rhino]

If you ever plan to shoot 3-gun, the Benelli is the only gun you should consider buying, however.

[dv8]

Eric,

Thanks for the info. You mentioned "stock 391", - is that a Beretta? Also, if that's not too much of a hassle, could you recommend me a few different guns to take a look at, so that I can have a better understanding of the options available?

Thanks a lot in advance.

Vlad.

[EricW]

Eric,

Thanks for the info. You mentioned "stock 391", - is that a Beretta? Also, if that's not too much of a hassle, could you recommend me a few different guns to take a look at, so that I can have a better understanding of the options available?

Thanks a lot in advance.

Vlad.

The Beretta is what I'm referring to.

As far as recommendations, that could be a damn long list. If it works, it works. It doesn't matter if it's a Win 97 or a Krieghoff. If it breaks birds - it's a winner.

What you need to do is head to a reputable clays range and take guns for a test drive. Avoid anyone that gets too hung up on selling you "their" choice of gun and instead go with someone who's only desire is to find a gun that fits you. Buy on fit and performance. Not marketing crap. Not what the Joneses are shooting. OK?

I, personally, believe that the Beretta 391 is probably the #1 choice for a new shooter simply because the stock is easily adjustable with shims, so you can have you gun reasonably well fit to you in a few minutes. There's a gazillion accessories for the 391 as well. The 391 is also damned near impossible to choke. You don't have to cough up for an O/U for the sake of reliability anymore.

I believe Browning has seen the light and provided the stock shim system as well.

Whatever you do, don't fit your gun yourself. Go to someone who knows what the hell they're doing (i.e. not some yutz like me who happens to be walking around the range.) It's worth coughing up the dough to get it done right by a top instructor.

Dan Mitchell, down near Salem, OR fit my gun and got me straightened out in a lesson for all of $45. Bless his peapickin' little heart.

(And for god's sake, don't buy an 1100. There's no reason to put up with that kind of abuse if you're only going to shoot clays with the thing.)

[EricW]

If you ever plan to shoot 3-gun, the Benelli is the only gun you should consider buying, however.

I'll buy 5 Eastern Slobovian Benelli knockoffs and have Benny fix them up before I ever mess with an 1100 again. Remmy shotguns blow chunks. Until I got my shotgun back, I lived my life totally, blissfully unaware that it was a technical challenge to make a shotgun run.

[dv8]

Eric,

Thanks a lot for the info.

I am going to a place where I can rent some guns to try out. Hopefully they have the 391 there.