Putty Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 My draw times are abysmal. 1.5 is my average. Frustrating because I am naturally very fast with my hands. My Cr speed holster was moved by a GM more in line with the side and hip. I have been having problems with this placement for awhile and have tried to work through it, thinking it was the correct way to do things. So, today I brought my draw times down to .98 or thereabouts, but never hit the target. I am left eye dominant but right handed. So I switched back to what was termed "Ghetto" holster placement where it now resides more in front of my thigh kind of pointing in towards my crotch. (I notice a lot of open shooters do this but I shoot limited). My draw times dropped to about 1 second with smooth indexing and repeated A zone hits. There is more of a bind on movement but I think I can suffer through it. Should I stick with the ghetto placement or do the right thing and work through the side placement. Is there a different holster that I could ghetto and not have the bind when moveing? Am I insane or plausibly genius? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 When you're talking about a bind on movement, do you mean the holster is binding on your thigh when you run? I say use what works best but the draw is something you do only once per string. If the holster placement slows down your movement you have to consider the slower draw vs. faster foot speed. You may just need some tough love on the holster placement. Perhaps try the holster placement the GM suggested for a longer amount of time? I had a ton of inconsistent indexing issues. I fought through it by setting the par on my timer for .6 (initially) and the entire drill was surrender to index (no draw, just obtain full firing grip) over and over. Once I was hitting my index repeatably I lower the par to .5, .4, etc... striving to find the ragged edge of my ability. I thought this drill was a good adaptation of the Burkett reload drill to fit my need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putty Posted January 10, 2007 Author Share Posted January 10, 2007 Well the bind is really no worse than before, I guess it just feels different in a new area. There is always going to be a bit of a bite with the cr speed or so I am told. I draw from surrender by coming straight down on top of the grip, so the ghetto placement seems to align better for that, although the hands relaxed type of draw may be more problematic. The old draw was a fast fumble, then a rush to make up the fumble with poor site alignment and shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Should I stick with the ghetto placement or do the right thing and work through the side placement. Is there a different holster that I could ghetto and not have the bind when moveing? Am I insane or plausibly genius? The guga, ghost, limcat, etc., should take care of the bind as they don't have the hanger. On the 'ghetto placement,' I would stick with what works for you. What works for TGO, Sevigny, Jarrett, etc., may not work for you. Everyone is built and wired differently. I take what I see, read, hear, etc., as a general guideline and nothing more. When I first started, I took Burkett's mag placement advice to heart (having the first mag directly in front at 12:00.) Try as I might, it never really worked out for me as I would grab the very end of the first mag or actually grab the second mag instead. Then I saw Yong Lee at a local match and he had all of his mags very close together and starting at ~10:00. Long story short, just because a GM told you to do something doesn't mean it will work as well for you as it does for him/her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 The CR Speed holster kinda begs to be placed more on the side. If placed forward, the "ears" of the holster (that surround the trigger guard) kinda fight the draw. Making you take the gun in a funny direction out of the holster. There are other holster better suited for the forward palcement. But, you ought to be able to work the technique with the CRS on the side. I draw from surrender by coming straight down on top of the grip, so the ghetto placement seems to align better for that, although the hands relaxed type of draw may be more problematic. Yeah...that hints at you struggling with the technique. Do you have Burkett's DVD's ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerT Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 (edited) Umm.., excuse me, but is this some IPSC/USPSA thing? In IPSC Standard the holster must be placed behind the hip bone. Not so in Limited? I have a CR Speed for my 625 that I could place in front of the hip bone (Revolver Std) but since I learned the draw from the Standard position this feels more natural for me and my gun don't snag on the CR Speed, I never feel any resistance when I lift it straight up to free it from the muzzle cup. Edited January 10, 2007 by RogerT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chp5 Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 I think you should use whatever works for you. Only you can answer that question. I also believe that you must try it in a match in order to decide. I read a good quote the other day that went something like this: "Freedom finds a man the moment he is no longer concerned with the impression he is making or about to make." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Umm.., excuse me, but is this some IPSC/USPSA thing?In IPSC Standard the holster must be placed behind the hip bone. Not so in Limited? --- snip --- Roger, Yup, there are no hip-bone things in USPSA limited (or open or L-10). Only production and PSSD have that limitation. Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral404 Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Sandoz, Try going back to place the holster on your side. Drop your right foot a little more back than you usually do. This may help to re-orient your shoulders square to the target and might bring your shots back on target. At work distance are you timing your draws? I am still learning the ropes. Ten yards or less I can pretty consistently ripped a sub 1 second draw. But I practice a lot out at 19-24 yards and my time slows down to 1.2. I suspect I am taking a pause to reassess the sight picture rather than going with the instinct. I offer this observation of my shooting because maybe you are getting the gun out extremely fast but you are wanting a better quaility sight picture at the longer distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 My draw times are abysmal. 1.5 is my average. Frustrating because I am naturally very fast with my hands. My Cr speed holster was moved by a GM more in line with the side and hip. I have been having problems with this placement for awhile and have tried to work through it, thinking it was the correct way to do things.So, today I brought my draw times down to .98 or thereabouts, but never hit the target. I am left eye dominant but right handed. So I switched back to what was termed "Ghetto" holster placement where it now resides more in front of my thigh kind of pointing in towards my crotch. (I notice a lot of open shooters do this but I shoot limited). My draw times dropped to about 1 second with smooth indexing and repeated A zone hits. There is more of a bind on movement but I think I can suffer through it. Should I stick with the ghetto placement or do the right thing and work through the side placement. Is there a different holster that I could ghetto and not have the bind when moveing? Am I insane or plausibly genius? In the OLD days, we used to wear our holsters exactly where you describe...the reasoning was that a man makes three "reaches" that are more habit or natural...one is to his pants pocket in front, the second to his pants pocket in the rear, and third to his fly...at that time, we were not considering either of the first two, so we used the third....it is very fast, but you have to twist your weapon during the draw and then there is always that thought of an AD in that area (disconcerting at best)....my answer is: if it works for you use it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putty Posted January 10, 2007 Author Share Posted January 10, 2007 Flex, i have matts' DVD's, perhaps i should review them again. The Ghetto position draw really is smoother out of the holster for some reason...I think its the way I do a straight drop draw like GM Springer. A half second improvement begs me to keep it, although that bite may lead me to another holster setup as aforementioned. The fun is working all this stuff out, and whereas I really couldnt stand getting up at O dark thirty in the morning to dryfire, I seem to like it now.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 (edited) Definitely review Matt's DVDs... That said... Sounds like you're using an "appendix" setup, where the gun is in front of your hip. That can feel better, especially if its what you're used to. In the end, though, I think most of us have found that a different technique can end up more reliably quick. There are three things to keep in mind when positioning the holster: - when moving to draw the gun, from any position, your shoulder should not have to move (in any direction) to get on the gun - the gun, when holstered, should line up with your forearm naturally when you grip it - the angle the gun is at in the holster should point it as much as possible at the target, when you are indexed w/ your NPA on the target These three things minimize the amount of work you have to do to get the gun out of the holster and consistently onto the target. If you have to move your shoulder, you move your head, which ends up giving you an inconsistent presentation - and you may only see this from one draw position - say, hands relaxed at sides. If the gun is too far to the rear, you end up either moving the shoulder back, or back and up, to get to the gun. Typically, you adjust the position of the holster on the belt, and the height of the holster on the belt to address the bulk of this issue. Gun in line w/ the arm assures that you'll have a consistent grip (as this is the most natural position for your body to find), and you'll draw without binding the gun inside the holster. This is usually corrected by adjusting the rake and cant on the holster - and sometimes by minor tweaks in height and belt position, depending on the adjustment ranges the holster has. Gun pointing toward the target as much as possible tends to give you a straighter approach into the target, causing the sights to punch straight into it, instead of coming in from one side, or from top or bottom. It promotes a straighter draw path. You adjust this in conjunction with the other movements. ETA... obviously, depending on the division (and USPSA vs. IPSC) and the exact equipment that you have, you may have to adapt a bit. If the equipment isn't working for you, try something else - a lot of folks have spare equipment laying around that you can borrow, etc. And just wait til you go prone on that CR Speed in an Appendix position... I might be leaving some nuances out - and YMMV as far as which adjustment does what for you, but... there ya go Edited January 10, 2007 by XRe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putty Posted January 10, 2007 Author Share Posted January 10, 2007 Yes the appendix! when the holster was at my hip I had to turn my shoulder quite a bit to line up the snatch draw, and with my right foot back, this creates more havoc. I also am structurally wide across the shoulders in bone-ology, if that is relevant to positioning of the holster and what feels comfortable. I have never gone prone at an area match but have for one or two classifiers in the 2 years shooting. I will start sniffing around for a ghost, limcat, shooting academy or gugas setup to try....maybe the new holster will send me back to standard postion and not appendix????DOH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 FWIW Barnhart used to say he was faster out of an appendix rig, but too many prone stages caused him enough medical problems to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 (edited) The fun is working all this stuff out, and whereas I really couldnt stand getting up at O dark thirty in the morning to dryfire, I seem to like it now.............. That right there is what will truely smooth things out for you. The MB dvd's can show you how to do things, but through refinement and repetition (enter trademark symbol here) you will burn the proper technique into your reflexes. As far as your holster placement, decide on which one works best for you and stick with it! Edited January 10, 2007 by Pharaoh Bender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Flex, i have matts' DVD's, perhaps i should review them again. Yeah. You draw sounds a lot like my used to. - I have fairly broad shoulders and used to prefer the appendix position over the side. As XRe said, it's a matter of should position while going for the gun. - I was good and fast coming down on the gun from surrender, but not as good from hands at side. From hands at side, I was either trying to scoop the gun (which can be fast, but inconsistent), or coming over then back down on the gun. I'd suggest watching Matt's DVD's with this in mind. He doesn't suggest coming up or down on the gun. He comes in from the side...think 'leather slap' ? Check it out though. The Ghetto position draw really is smoother out of the holster for some reason... Again, check your shoulder movement. (Try it is super slow motion) A half second improvement begs me to keep it, although that bite may lead me to another holster setup as aforementioned. That statement is a red flag saying that you need work on the technique. You shouldn't have a 50% disparity. And, if the holster position masks the holes in your technique, then you likely will hit a limit at the appendix position too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 (edited) I'm somewhat broad in the shoulders and hips, as well, FWIW... In fact, IIRC, Flex and I are built similarly, although he's a little taller and bigger through the shoulders ??? The problem with appendix position, for me (aside from the the fact that the gun starts pointed at my crotch or a major artery) is that I have to manipulate too much to get lined up - the gun is way off line as it comes out of the holster, I have to pull the gun sideways to get it out, before I can get it down range, I have to cam my strong hand around in weird ways to get on the gun solid, etc... My holster (using a Ghost - but applies to any of them), the hanger piece of the holster is at the front-middle of my front pocket wearing a pair of jeans. This actually is a legal position for IPSC Standard, as its immediately behind my hip bone - but I'd probably get some looks. Most importantly, it puts the grip immediately above my strong hand when I stand relaxed (or IPSC Monkey, for that matter), so its a convenient spot. Its not way back on the side of my body, though, where I *do* have to move my shoulder back. Height of the gun is such that the front of the grip is even w/ the bottom of my belt. The gun is canted outward from my body just slightly, and raked so that the gun is straight up and down, which puts my wrist at an angle very close to my shooting grip (less stuff to move around later) - somehow, this seems to be easier to get onto consistently, as well. Finally, its rotated to line up w/ my forearm. In my stance, with strong foot back slightly (right toes equal w/ rear third of left foot), the muzzle points just in front of my big toe when the gun is in the holster. My setup is admittedly very Burkett-ish - if you look at pics of him, I'm not far off. I've tried a few other things, and this is what I keep coming back to. Other stuff will feel comfortable for a while - and I even found a short term improvement with it in a couple of places. But, long term, and the widest variety of start positions, this has worked out the best, so far... I can send you some pics, if that'll help... One further note - I did have this holster further back, at one point, and I'd learned how to cheat my shoulders to keep them from moving while I drew - but I was in an odd, and relatively uncomfortable position to do it. I even managed to fool Burkett, I'd learned the cheat so good. I did that without really giving it a good look, and without trying to do so. I spent some time in front of the mirror after he suggested possibly moving the holster forward on the belt some, and focused on just relaxing, and then slowly moving to the gun - and that's when the shoulder position, the cheat I'd developed to avoid it, etc, became apparent Just more evidence that we have remain open to new ideas, stay relaxed, and be honest with ourselves.... Edited January 11, 2007 by XRe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putty Posted January 11, 2007 Author Share Posted January 11, 2007 Heres the ol appendix.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Sandoz sent me an additional pic from the side - from the side, it looks like the holster is further forward, in front of the front pocket. Not quite what I'd call appendix, in the traditional sense Move the holster up to the front of hte front pocket, and then point the muzzle to the left... Pics coming at you soon, man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Heres the ol appendix.... Nope, the pistol is farther toward the center of the body with the appendix..... Maybe 3 inches or so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Coupla pics of my setup.... Two each from front and side, w/ hand on the gun in one of each to demonstrate how all that sets up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putty Posted January 11, 2007 Author Share Posted January 11, 2007 Ok I am right on target thanks to all you fine posters. I had the gun alot farther back in line with the pants outside seam. Twisting me up awful. OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, fast draws with no guilt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 I'll see if I can find a pic of an appendix rig to show you what we thought you were talking about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 I know the Guga Ribas and the Ghost will both grab the gun with a bad draw. I'm guessing the gun is being twisted on the draw. It took me forever to get my first Ghost setup so this wouldn't happen, although it could have been me as well. My wife never had a problem wih the Ghost (w/pin) for her 1911 or the new style Ghost for her Glock. Both are setup exactly like mine, but she places the holster farther back. I always set up both types of holsters lined up on the watch pocket of my jeans, which seems different from most of the people I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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