ihatepickles Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Why is it that every other transfer I go through I deal with an FFL that thinks I'm breaking the Federal law when I (private individual) sent them (a FFL dealer) a firearm? I've gotten to the point that I simply offer to conference in the local ATF office to clear things up. I haven't had an FFL take me up on that yet, but it sure would be easier if the FFL holders had a clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Why is it that every other transfer I go through I deal with an FFL that thinks I'm breaking the Federal law when I (private individual) sent them (a FFL dealer) a firearm?I've gotten to the point that I simply offer to conference in the local ATF office to clear things up. I haven't had an FFL take me up on that yet, but it sure would be easier if the FFL holders had a clue. Agreed & I have encountered the same ignorance from FFLs in this area (Area 8). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 I could not agree more. Of the last 3 transactions I have done only one knew how to handle it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Yep, i had a deal today where the recieving FFL would not fax me his FFL until I faxed him mine. He doesnt even have to have mine. i do send a copy with the shipment as a courtesy but to demand mine first is ridiculous, but i complied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 My most recent FFL to FFL involved a guy in the Midwest who sent the handgun (to my FFL here in Oregon) via "ground" common carrier instead of "overnight." I think regulations require that handguns be shipped "overnight" (either that, or the tradition of "overnight" is deeply engrained and has become a de facto "regulation"); but the whole deal scared the crap out of everyone I talked to, and we held our breath until the Kimber arrived. Took four or five days and over a weekend, too. We wondered if he was just tryin' to save money or something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2fast Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 I had the same problem last year when I sold a pistol to a guy in MO. None of the FFL's local to him would take a shipment from me directly so I had to pay my FFL to ship the pistol. I can understand being cautious but some take it to unreasonable levels. The only thing that my local guys does that still isn't technically required is that he asked for a copy of the driver's license of the person I'm buying from as a extra verification step. On the common carrier front I believe it is legal for an FFL to ship via USPS but us common folks have to use overnight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted January 10, 2007 Author Share Posted January 10, 2007 FFL to FFL can use USPS and this is a fairly cheap option. The USPS won't do private party to FFL shipments. Private party to FFL must use private carriers such as UPS or FedEx. This isn't the law, this is just the rules that the USPS, UPS, FedEx, etc... require to use their service. I think that often gunshop lackies can't tell the difference between what the BATF requires and what their shipper requires. In general they hate all things Internet to begin with because it gets in the way of their price-fixing scams. I'll keep my business with the Internet friendly folks as much as I can. Maybe when I figure out where I want to live I'll get an FFL of my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Feel your pain, Pickles. Went through the same thing twice last month. Once it was me sending a firearm to a FFL, and the second instance my local FFL wanted to return a firearm he received for me from a non-licensee. Both times I offered to call the ATF to clarify but didn't have to make the call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Frank Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Feel your pain, Pickles. Went through the same thing twice last month. Once it was me sending a firearm to a FFL, and the second instance my local FFL wanted to return a firearm he received for me from a non-licensee.Both times I offered to call the ATF to clarify but didn't have to make the call. Maybe I can help. Yes, an FFL can receive a firearm from a non-licensee, but if the gun would be stolen, the FFL would be liable and could lose his license. By receiving it from another FFL, he insulates himself. This is how it was explained to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 My most recent FFL to FFL involved a guy in the Midwest who sent the handgun (to my FFL here in Oregon) via "ground" common carrier instead of "overnight." I think regulations require that handguns be shipped "overnight" (either that, or the tradition of "overnight" is deeply engrained and has become a de facto "regulation"); but the whole deal scared the crap out of everyone I talked to, and we held our breath until the Kimber arrived. Took four or five days and over a weekend, too. We wondered if he was just tryin' to save money or something... The overnight stuff is not a regulation, it's purely an imposition by Fedex and UPS designed to extract money from us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted January 10, 2007 Author Share Posted January 10, 2007 Maybe I can help. Yes, an FFL can receive a firearm from a non-licensee, but if the gun would be stolen, the FFL would be liable and could lose his license. By receiving it from another FFL, he insulates himself. This is how it was explained to me. If this were the way the system worked, there wouldn't be a gunsmith in the country that would allow a firearm to be sent directly to them. The difference, is gunsmiths are a much different cat than a gunshop. In truth, if you follow the rules of the ATF and follow the shipper's rules you're not going to be blamed for a loss of the firearm. A couple of anecdotes: I was traveling back east and planned to hunt a little so I shipped my rifle directly to myself c/o my Dad. I mentioned this in passing at a gunshop and the guy behind the counter was quite seriously debating calling the FBI or thte ATF (he wasn't sure who investigated these things). Now, I don't know how everyone else feels about be falsely accused of Federal crimes but I haven't returned to this store. Here's the relevant passage on the ATF's Site A local mail carrier won't go in to the shop of my local FFL. They routinely leave 20 guns on the doorstep of a busy strip-mall because of their phobia of dogs. Yep, the postal carrier is so frighten of dogs in general that they take the chance that a random passerby will steal firearms from the front porch. The FFL has to post a doorman around mail-time to make sure their stock isn't swiped. The dog in the FFL's shop is a 30 pound labrador/beagle mix without a suspicious bone in her body. I cringe every time I start the transfer process. I swear there's idiots synchronizing their watches with my own in an effort to conspire against me. You'd naturally think I'm paranoid if I didn't have things go wrong so many times. Gotta go, the black helos are hovering outside now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitman Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Yes we are all out to get you! This should not be supprising, there are many FFLs that cant or wont read the regs or talk to the ATF even to ask for clarification on something. And training their employees is a joke much of the time. Case in point, got a gift card from a large sporting goods company. They had a rifle I liked, box it up here is a copy of my FFL I need a copy of your stores. OH NO we cant do that,you have to fill this out and come back in 3 days. Why I say? We call the ATF and you have to wait 3 days after approval. I ask why again. They dont know, Get manager. I ask manager, his response, the ATF requires a 3 day waiting period (wrong). I explaing the meaning of instiant background check, the fact that a FFL to FFL requires no calls be made and that I dont mind doing a 44 on the purchase and using my CC permit that sufices for a call. His wonderfull resopnse was wow you really sound like you know what you are doing, I got 10 min. training on this stuff. End of story If I want the rifle I wait 3 days, 15 min later they are loading 500 dollars worth of ammo in my truck and I have never been back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Why is it that every other transfer I go through I deal with an FFL that thinks I'm breaking the Federal law when I (private individual) sent them (a FFL dealer) a firearm?I've gotten to the point that I simply offer to conference in the local ATF office to clear things up. I haven't had an FFL take me up on that yet, but it sure would be easier if the FFL holders had a clue. There has got to be an FFL without an extra chromosome somewhere in your area. It took me a while to find the right one here in the Dayton area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Feel your pain, Pickles. Went through the same thing twice last month. Once it was me sending a firearm to a FFL, and the second instance my local FFL wanted to return a firearm he received for me from a non-licensee. Both times I offered to call the ATF to clarify but didn't have to make the call. Maybe I can help. Yes, an FFL can receive a firearm from a non-licensee, but if the gun would be stolen, the FFL would be liable and could lose his license. By receiving it from another FFL, he insulates himself. This is how it was explained to me. I dont know where this came from. An FFL is not liable if its stolen. As long as he followed the law he cant loose his license either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Frank Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Ihatepickles & Chuckbradly, Sorry to have misinformed anyone by my earlier post this morning. I was just trying to be helpful and participate a little for once. By the reponses, I believe my statement was interpreted differently than I had intended. I did not mean if the gun was stolen "in transit", but rather a gun that was considered stolen "prior to shipment", and was "hot". By receiving it from another FFL, the receiving FFL insulates himself, and the former FFL has the distinction of receiving and shipping stolen merchandise. Whether this is true or not I really don't know. This is what I was told by an FFL on this subject. Have a good evening.....Hank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Ihatepickles & Chuckbradly,Sorry to have misinformed anyone by my earlier post this morning. I was just trying to be helpful and participate a little for once. By the reponses, I believe my statement was interpreted differently than I had intended. I did not mean if the gun was stolen "in transit", but rather a gun that was considered stolen "prior to shipment", and was "hot". By receiving it from another FFL, the receiving FFL insulates himself, and the former FFL has the distinction of receiving and shipping stolen merchandise. Whether this is true or not I really don't know. This is what I was told by an FFL on this subject. Have a good evening.....Hank Hank, You may be right on that one. I read it as if you meant stolen in transit. Sorry about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted January 11, 2007 Author Share Posted January 11, 2007 I read it as if you meant stolen in transit. Sorry about that. Yep, me too, your info could be correct in that context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 The overnight stuff is not a regulation, it's purely an imposition by Fedex and UPS designed to extract money from us. I think they all started doing it so that stuff would not be in they system as long and be tracked better. And yes, they make more money off us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Old thread - but it comes to mind since a former star of the U. MD basketball team, Lonnie Baxter, just accepted a plea deal for violating laws on shipping firearms by common carrier. He was moving from one state to another and apparently sent the guns to himself. Remember, you have to TELL the counter monkeys at FedEx that there is a gun in the box. And - they can't mark it on the outside (they just tell their buddies in the back there's a gun inside so the package can "disappear" after hours - brilliant.). Here is the batfe section: (B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? [back] A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30] And the story: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal...local-headlines Turns out his guns were forfiet as part of the plea: Baxter has a prior D.C. felony conviction for, among other things, "Unregistered Ammunition" - a violation of D.C.'s ultra strict gun ban. Possess ammunition in D.C. = felony (unless you are a resident with a gun registered in the caliber - only they don't register guns in D.C. anymore). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdstihl Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 How did they find out he did this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Most of the FFL's near me won't let a private person ship to an FFL. They know it is legal, but the BATF has them scared to do it. Ted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMoore Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 I used to hate dealing with the FFLs in my area. None of them bothered to read the Maryland law, or just didn't care. Long guns on the "assault rifle" list require a 7 day waiting period and State Police background check. If after 7 days, the MSP hasn't told the FFL that you are denied, they can give you your gun. Almost every one of them will actually wait the 2-3 weeks it takes for the MSP to ship back the paperwork. Now I deal with a Military/Police only FFL. Not only are they cheaper, but when I pay for a handgun and do the paperwork Friday afternoon, I can go pick it up that next Friday, no matter what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cking Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 The overnight thing is a UPS rule not a BATF rule. It was just another way of UPS making more money because they were losing guns. The cheapest way to ship is via postoffice, FFL to FFL handguns can be shipped and not overnighted. So your friend broke UPS rules not goverment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddjob Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 I live in California and its bad here. State law here states a FFL cannot refuse to conduct a private party transfer. Local FFL here told another fella and I he won't do a private party transfer. I tried to edcate him on some other laws & regs and advised him to look it up on the internet (his computer was on). Didn't even want to look it up. I didn't say anything and walked out. I did educate another local FFL and told him about certain state rules and regs. He had an open mind and researched the law. He was fine after that. He now gets all my business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianH Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 According to a ups worker this afternoon, they (UPS) will no longer ship non-FFL to FFL. The shipper must be licensed, too. I asked when the hell that happened, and at first what came out of her mouth was "it's always been that way", but stopped herself (I was gonna jump her shit for that one...I've shipped too many guns to count) but then she said it started the first of the year. I haven't yet verified if this is fact or not...if it's not the case I'm sure UPS would love to know which employees are lying to customers. As for me, I think I'm done with them for good. FedEx is closer, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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