Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Seeing


EricW

Recommended Posts

I finally started truly *seeing* while shooting skeet today.  The trappers probably thought I was nuts, because I missed like crazy, but today was a major breakthrough for me.  

I got warmed up on station 1, then went to the center station to shoot crossers.  I screwed in a light modified choke (yes, I know it's too tight), but I finally started to *see* leads.  Up to today, I've just kind of used the force.  I kind of *knew* where to throw the gun to make the break - which got me by, but little more.  

But now...I can see!!  I can see!!  

I know it's wrong, but overchoking on the skeet range is really working for me.  The only way I get a break is with a perfect lead and a perfect line.  It's vapor, or zipola.  Running wide open chokes and being happy with a round of weak breaks really did nothing for my shooting.  Now I can see how my barrel path doesn't match the target path.  Brian's tip about how the muzzle should be vertically stationary while you mount the gun made perfect sense.  I could watch the muzzle wobble around on every crappy mount I made.

That new Briley Light Mod choke tube is about to get some serious mileage put on it.  It's cool!  The pattern size is "just right."  I like it!

The next job is to get a laser pointer stuffed into the barrel for some serious mounting practice...

E

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eric,

First, it's absolutely NOT WRONG to use a tighter choke than you might if shooting a perfect score was your only concern. Hell, shoot a full choke on a skeet range if you're feeling froggy enough. (Mod or light mod is perfect though.) Trap shooters swear by a full choke, even though IC will break birds all day long at the 16 yd line. Why? Because you can see which SIDE of the bird you're breaking. "If you just see the bird break," you're probably not learning anything.

Second, beware of - "looking for the lead." It will eventually cause  you to shoot worse - especially if/when you move on from the skeet or trap field. You tell me why. :)

be

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Brian,

I've learned on thing from all this.  Nobody can learn to shoot from from range scuttlebutt.  Guys were telling my that the IC I started with was too tight for skeet (fortunately, I ignored them).  

I don't know if I'm looking for the lead or am just getting a better vibe on it.  I finally am getting to where I am looking several feet in front of the target to make the break instead of lobbing hopers out there and getting breaks based on some pre-programmed mechanical relationship.  Overchoking really started helping me call my shots.  I'm damn glad I ignored the "experts" on this one.

By the way, what's your take on beads and sights on shotguns?  I usually try to keep my bead blacked out, just to keep me from being distracted by it and fixating on the barrel.  I'm thinking about losing it all together.  But, I do notice lots of guys running fiber optic sights.  They seem sort of self-defeating for shotgunning, or am I wrong...?

Thanks for the feedback.

Eric

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A bead can help tell your secondary vision where the end to the barrel is, especially in poor light.

I've tried everything from small to big to no bead at all. It really didn't matter. I never tried a fiber optic just because I was afraid I'd start looking for it.

You still haven't told me why "looking for the lead" creates a problem.

:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[The gauntlet has been thrown down, and I'm pretty sure I'll be picking it up shortly....]

BE,

My vibe is that "looking for the lead" will essentially shift one's focus from the target to the barrel, which will basically stop the barrel in mid swing.  Correct?

I was gonna try it this weekend before I blabbed out an answer, but since you had to keep prodding me....I'll blab early.

:)

E

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You eye cannot focus on but one thing at a time and if you are looking at the bead, you cannot be looking at the target and even if you do not stop the gun, you will probably slow it enough to loose the bird.

as you know your hands are led by your eyes and cannot point at what they cannot see, so if you aren't looking at the bird, you probably won't hit it.

(Edited by tightloop at 5:23 pm on Oct. 3, 2002)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

EricW,

Yes, as soon as your mind attempts to "measure" the shot you "look away" from the target. Which, with a shotgun, is pretty much where your primary focus should be at all times. Remember, even on "straight-aways," the target is always moving.

A similar subject: When asked about beads or no beads, I remember Steve Middleditch saying to use one because even though you are always looking at the bird, your peripheral vision must be able to establish a relationship between the bird and the muzzle. He was big on the word "relationship," which implies that the act of hitting a flying target is very dynamic, or always changing. As soon as your mind sees "a picture" - the party's over. For you that is, (as the target soars out of sight).

It's also important to note that we can get away, somewhat, with "leading" or "measuring" clay shots that are easy, (American Skeet or Trap), predictable, (American Skeet or Trap), or both. (American Skeet or Trap.)

But once you leave the Skeet or Trap field, the proper execution of the fundamentals becomes essential for success.

be

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Brian,

Funny thing...  Last Friday I had the chance to meet "Yoda" of the clays world, who comes in the form a a skinny, chain-smoking, old coot named "Mac" who wears a ski jacket when it's sixty-five degrees and complains about the cold.  Mac has great Karma.  He got me straightened out and helped me answer your question.  I then STOPPED seeing lead and reverted to seeing only the target.  ...just when I thought I had it all figured out.  Seeing the target sure works better.

I'm still getting weirded out by seeing the flash of the bead during the mount.  I think I might try blacking it out for the short term b/c I keep fixating on it like it was the front sight of my pistol.  Maybe once I get some target focus discipline, I might unblack it again.  Mac said exactly the same thing about needing in your peripheral vision.  

Thanks!!!

E

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Maybe once I get some target focus discipline,"

I'm wondering if you've ever really SEEN a target. (The bead shouldn't be noticeable, or bother you.) I only said that somewhat smartass remark because I'd shot thousands and thousands of targets over many years before I SAW my first one. (My whole body is getting the chills as I typed that.)

be

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe I haven't seen one yet.  I *think* I see the whole target.  I haven't got to the "seeing the front/whatever edge" thing yet.  I know that for sure.  I just wish there was a range closer to my house - one week is too long between practice sessions.

E

(Edited by EricW at 4:07 pm on Oct. 9, 2002)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

EricW,  I was shooting skeet one afternoon, and doing very well. At the end of the day as I was putting my shotgun away, one of the other shooters came over to talk. He wanted to know how I liked shooting without the bead on the gun. I said I don't know as I have never tried it. He looked at me kind of funny, then said to look at my shotgun. I had been shooting all day without the bead and never knew it. I don't know what the moral of this story is, but I think it means I was finally seeing the bird.   Avery53

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ideas on "directing seeing":

a) See the leading EDGE of the bird.

B) If you can see both the top and bottom of the bird, (i.e., orange and black on most Skeet stations), SEE both colors.

c) SEE the ridges on top.

d) SEE the bird spinning.

And here's a tip that helped tremendously -

Don't move your gun after the bird until you see it as "a whole target." Meaning - don't move "on the blur."

If you're shooting repetitive targets, learn not to look for the target before you can see it as a whole target. This usually is a good guide and works well; however, on station 8, (American Skeet), I look for the target right at the window. When you smash that target, it often feels like you SAW the target as it was leaving the window. Once, after several of us smashed our way through low house 8, someone said - "I saw that target before it left the window." Then, I think it was The Great One who said, "I saw that target before it left the arm." Of course I then said, "I saw that target as the trapper was loading it on the machine, yesterday."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Sorry to dredge up a really Old thread here, but this thread is Amazing.  I had some Major trouble on low, fast passing shots today and when I asked Jack (the guy I was shooting with) how much he lead the clays he answered "I don't pay any attention to my lead.  I just see the bird and execute the shot."  Confused the h*ll out of me at the time, but it kinda makes sense, now!  It is amazing how much you can learn here by just scanning the old threads!

ps:  benos, is their a shooting sport that you have tried that you didn't excel in!   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You dont really get any big signal when you start to see the target instead of the bead, you however start smashing clays to bits instead of chipping them, you know when your mounting the gun "yep this one is dead". As has been said already when the gun moves with target and primary focus is on the front edge of the target, its all over for that clay.

CW

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...