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Use Of Zen


GlockShooter

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Please forgive my ignorance if I am incorrect in my opinion, but if Zen is an "open" state of mind, couldn't it's teachings be incorporated into one's religious beliefs, regardless of what they might be?

Yes, and those who practice Zen are quite overt about this aspect (in my observation.)

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Please forgive my ignorance if I am incorrect in my opinion, but if Zen is an "open" state of mind, couldn't it's teachings be incorporated into one's religious beliefs, regardless of what they might be?

Definitely. Thich Nhat Hanh is one zen master that's done just that.

be

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  • 2 weeks later...

I missed this post when it was current, but my beliefs in Christianity have personally been questioned by people in the church about studying martial arts and the whole Zen and meditation thing. I have studied several martial arts and I have never had a sensei that did not believe in Christianity.

Zen is a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Certain Zen sects were a religious practice, but doesn't have to be. For most of us (except those who are monks and have a year or so to sit around on top of a mountain and meditate, not that there is anything wrong with that if that's your thing), use the principals of Zen for competition as well as daily activities (shooting, etc) as a path to obtain Mushin, or mind no mind (responding/reacting with conciousness but without thought). This action without thought is for e.g. what makes you shoot faster, fight multiple oponents and win, etc. You let it flow and happen, smooth and fast with devastating effect.

The principals of Zen are what we use to obtain spiritual serenity, mental tranquility, self confidence, ability to cope with problems, etc. It's hard to explain because Zen has no theory....but the principals are what we apply to find our inner strength and free us from the mind clutter that our busy lives fill our brains with. Zen allows us to truly know our inner selves without prejudice. "Zen is an inner knowing for which there is no clearly stated dogma...deemphasizes the power of the intellect and extols that of intuitive action. It's ultimate aim is to free the individual..." (Joe Hyams)

If Zen gets you funny looks when you say it out loud, maybe refer to it as the Way, if you don't know the crowd you are in....as in the way of the warrior (no reference to the physical fighting of warriors, but the mind set).

Good reading on the subject - "Living the Martial Way" and "Zen in the Martial Arts"

The principals can be applied to shooting, martial arts, interactions with business associates, friends, family, our churches, and our general outlook on life.

Sorry so long....but this is a deep, deep, deep, subject that is a never ending pursuit.

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The original book introducing Zen to Westerners is Zen and the Art of Archery, written by a German in about 1928 about his experiences while posted in Japan as a diplomat. It's a good intro.

Both Zen and yoga have religious connections, and it's up to you to discern what to take and what to leave.

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  • 10 months later...
Zen is a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Certain Zen sects were a religious practice, but doesn't have to be. For most of us (except those who are monks and have a year or so to sit around on top of a mountain and meditate, not that there is anything wrong with that if that's your thing), use the principals of Zen for competition as well as daily activities (shooting, etc) as a path to obtain Mushin, or mind no mind (responding/reacting with conciousness but without thought). This action without thought is for e.g. what makes you shoot faster, fight multiple oponents and win, etc. You let it flow and happen, smooth and fast with devastating effect.

The principals of Zen are what we use to obtain spiritual serenity, mental tranquility, self confidence, ability to cope with problems, etc. It's hard to explain because Zen has no theory....but the principals are what we apply to find our inner strength and free us from the mind clutter that our busy lives fill our brains with. Zen allows us to truly know our inner selves without prejudice. "Zen is an inner knowing for which there is no clearly stated dogma...deemphasizes the power of the intellect and extols that of intuitive action. It's ultimate aim is to free the individual..." (Joe Hyams)

If Zen gets you funny looks when you say it out loud, maybe refer to it as the Way, if you don't know the crowd you are in....as in the way of the warrior (no reference to the physical fighting of warriors, but the mind set).

The principals can be applied to shooting, martial arts, interactions with business associates, friends, family, our churches, and our general outlook on life.

Sorry so long....but this is a deep, deep, deep, subject that is a never ending pursuit.

The danger of never ending pursuits is that you could be headed in the wrong direction. Sounds to me what Buddhists call "Zen", Christians call the "Holy Ghost". It's good to know yourself, it is better to know God (don't know first hand, but I'm confident the theory is sound.)

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The danger of never ending pursuits is that you could be headed in the wrong direction. Sounds to me what Buddhists call "Zen", Christians call the "Holy Ghost". It's good to know yourself, it is better to know God (don't know first hand, but I'm confident the theory is sound.)

I'd call that heresy. :)

Those Christian sects which propound the Holy Trinity, i.e., Father, Son and Holy Ghost, see each as Diety. Buddhists do not call Zen Diety. Christians can be filled with the Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost. One can practice Zen, but not be filled with it in the same sense. Any Roshi worth his salt would likely smack me for saying this, but if Diety is a noun Zen is a verb. Or, if a religion is a strategy, Zen is a tactic.

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Zen-like mediation is not unique to Buddhism. A fair number of early Christian sects such as the Desert Fathers used this technique of contemplative meditation. I've always considered the practice of Zen a technique (okay, I really view it as nothing more than just being, but that is a more involved story. ;) ) that can be applied to spiritual pursuits, the religion of your choice, shooting, or playing with my daughter.

Edited because the practice of Zen does not lead to improved spelling.

Edited by Neomet
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I wrote an article several years ago that relates to this very topic, http://www.oniko.de/archiv/uraomote/1996/96january.html#chri

As a Christian I tend to avoid Zen because of it's Buddhist origins. To say that Zen is not Buddhist is similar to saying one can follow the Christian bible without being a Christian. There is some truth to it, but not much. The two religions start with diametrically opposed views; Buddhism teaches that we have a pure original nature that as adults we've forgotten. The image of an infant totally engaged in seeing something beautiful, or a toddler enraptured by a butterfly recall to us this original nature and fascination with something while being truely "in the moment". There is nothing I'm aware of in Christianity that precludes wonderous fascination with God's creation. Just don't forget that it's a creation, and thank the Creator. :)

However, Christianity teaches that man's nature is not unblemished. Anyone who has dealt with a child throwing a tantrum, read much psycology or history, or paid attention to the evening news can see evidence of mankinds flawed nature. At our best, we are great but the other 99% of the time we are just plain awful.

Last night's league shoot gave me a reminder of this very thing. Instead of doing each shot as if it was all that mattered, I let ego and concern with the outcome ruin my ability to perform. How hard can it be to shoot 5 paper plates that are 6" in diameter and 50 feet away, in 10 seconds? If pride aims and hubris pulls the trigger, you wind up with 38 hits and 22 misses! Arrgghhh!!!!!

Enough of my own confession; what should a Christian do with Zen? First, keep in mind that "Right Concentration" is part of the Buddhist Noble Eightfold Path (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path), which is a part of the Four Noble Truths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths). Both can be found in Christian scripture with different names and different answers. As a Christian I'm well aware of my true nature and am ardently seeking the new mind given by life in the Holy Spirit. When I can see my fellow shooters with the love God has for each of them, and recognize that everyone on the line is as much a unique creation as I, then the beauty of the moment can freely overwhelm. There is no concern about how I score because I'm enraptured with the gift of pleasure God has provided. In 10,000 years the 22 misses won't matter but the witness to my friends will.

Leam

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I wrote an article several years ago that relates to this very topic, http://www.oniko.de/archiv/uraomote/1996/96january.html#chri

As a Christian I tend to avoid Zen because of it's Buddhist origins. To say that Zen is not Buddhist is similar to saying one can follow the Christian bible without being a Christian. There is some truth to it, but not much. The two religions start with diametrically opposed views; Buddhism teaches that we have a pure original nature that as adults we've forgotten. The image of an infant totally engaged in seeing something beautiful, or a toddler enraptured by a butterfly recall to us this original nature and fascination with something while being truely "in the moment". There is nothing I'm aware of in Christianity that precludes wonderous fascination with God's creation. Just don't forget that it's a creation, and thank the Creator. :)

Leam

Well that is a different take!

I have studied for many years and was never aware it was vegetable worship! :blink::lol: (not poking fun at you Leam)

It is hard to have an understanding of being a Muslim by watching insurgents blowing themselves up in Iraq.

It is also hard to have an understanding of being Christian by only studying how they tortured/burned/killed millions of females as "witches" in their formative years.

It is also hard to have an understanding of buddhism by briefly looking into odd (especially modern) sects of buddhism, who think by being bald, robed, starved of meat with bruised sit bones means they have an exclusive insight to a sweet and special place called...dun, dun dun..."Nirvana".

All the above will only compound the issues the OP (and all of us) has.

Zen does'nt recognize and it does'nt, not recognize itself, nor any religious concept. So of course you are free to be as Christian, or as Muslim as you like. Just don't kill someone over it. Similar to what old yellow face said "if you see the buddha on the road, kill him". These ideas are not dissimilar, not by one fraction of planck length.

The OP's question ifself was one of division. Just drop division from your mind and leave it alone.

Don't worry yourself over finding and holding to a label and compartment for everything of experience. These things only obfuscate your mind from experience without judgement. Be dilligent in reducing the conditioned filtering process of your mind. Do not be swayed by events/emotion/opinions/sides/logic/illogic/happiness/sadness/up/down. All things happen of their own accord without our micro-management.

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Yeah, I forgot the "Don't take Wikipedia as gosepl" caveat. :blink: I was more interested in connumicating the basics of the Eightfold Path, which on the surface makes a lot of sense and taken out of context is hard to argue with, and the Four Noble Truths as the starting point of some of the logic. My fault guys; let me clarify a bit.

Proverbs 15:14 (New International Version) 'The discerning heart seeks knowledge, but the mouth of a fool feeds on folly."

You'd be surprised, or maybe you wouldn't, about how many people in the church get militant in dealing with other religions. There are differences, and we cannot glaze our eyes over and mumble about "many paths to the same direction". However, as demonstrated by the Eightfold Path, there are other religious systems that teach some really reasonable stuff. If humanity made the slightest *attempt* at any of the "Right..." stuff we'd be much better off. Yet often times we Christians either don't stand up for the truth or alienate others because we're feeding on the folly of not seeking knowledge. And yeah, I have to include myself in that crowd sometimes.

Proverbs 14:12 (NIV) "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." The falacy of Zen is that it seperates reality from thought of reality. How you think/feel, or really don't think/feel about something becomes an endpoint. That's not true. How you do/don't think/feel about something has no relevance to the truth. To seek a state of no-mind is to remove any purpose. If there is no purpose then there is no value and absent value on things like self, life, and others there can be neither good or evil. If my life has no purpose than being fully in this moment then someone ending my life has no effect because I am now even more fully in a state of no-mind.

Our minds know there is absolute good and evil. Certain things are undeniably wrong; rape, child abuse, murder. For there to be a wrong there must be a value to whatever is lost. Value is based on desire and purpose. The value of a dollar is is based on the shared desire a buyer and seller have for it as a tool in the transaction. The purpose of that dollar is based on the role of the transactor; either to further a business or to buy something to answer a need.

John 15:13 (NIV) "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." If my life has value, and it must since unjustly taking it is wrong, then what is love but the the giving of my "self" for you? We generally think of this in terms of an abrupt end, taking a bullet or covering a grenade. Our service men and women see this daily and probably have a deeper appreciation than most. Yet if love is shown by sacrificing something of value for another then I have value, you have value, and the actions of my life have purpose in how I spend my life in relation to others. My life is the most valuable thing I have, if there is no greater love in laying it down for you then the greatest purpose of my life is love, and how I demonstrate it. If I ascribe enough value to you that my life can be spent in furthering your interests then the relationship is important and stepping out of that perception devalues both of us. If I step up to the line ready to shoot and focus on score and performance I've also devalued both of us by saying numbers and records are more important than the friendship we share. If my head is where it should be then every trigger pull, no matter the score, builds us both.

Hope this helps. I've avoided saying specifics about Zen because it has been over a decade since I studied. In my youth, which seems so long ago, I really wanted a better answer than the Christianty forced down my throat as a kid. After years of searching I discovered the truth of the faith hidden by the folly of some self-labelled faithful.

This thread is a cautious joy; it is good to listen to a wide variety of opinions and yet I have to be just as friendly as everyone else when I respond.

Leam

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Thich Nhat Hanh probably said it best with no spiritual or religious implications when he said

"When you do dishes, just do dishes."

Of course the subject is far deeper, and his explanation far more eloquent than the simple line I have quoted but I think it gets to the truth of the matter in a completely secular manner.

(Truth in advertising disclaimer: While not a Zen Buddhist I am a practitioner of Vajrayana Buddhism so my views may be skewed. Or not. )

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The falacy of Zen is that it seperates reality from thought of reality. How you think/feel, or really don't think/feel about something becomes an endpoint. That's not true. How you do/don't think/feel about something has no relevance to the truth. To seek a state of no-mind is to remove any purpose.

This thread is a cautious joy; it is good to listen to a wide variety of opinions and yet I have to be just as friendly as everyone else when I respond.

Leam

Now that is an interpretation of Mu Shin, or no-mind I've not run into for some time. To seek a state of no-mind is a purpose in itself. :)

To achieve a state of Mu Shin is to percieve reality without judgement. The perception of reality without prejudice is the perception of truth.

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Yeah, Leam one thing to be cautious of is that Zen seems..."tricky" if you take what they say at face value.

There actually is no seperation of reality from thought of reality.

Basically, If I am doing dishes and don't like it...I might rant and rave and be pissed...but the dishes get done. Now I am upset and only I allow this matter to sway my minds function. The dishes have no anima and really don't care that I am upset at how "stuck-on" they are. I am the one in the midst of reality suffering over reality because I have done exactly what zen says not to do...seperate reality from thought of reality.

A zen buddhist will simply do the dishes without allowing negative emotion to get the better of him/her.

We know that in a figtht, an angry person is much less efficient in delivering a blow. This means a personal fight as well as a large scale battle involving multitudes. Zen knows that an efficient person is one who is in control of their faculties.

Zen buddhism tries to use various expedients to allow you to directs the minds energies where you want them to go. At times, if someone who only has a sparing glimpse into Zen reads a particular passage, it can create an odd perception. For example:

A zen monk was told that all reality is non-existent...This zen monk thought he was greatly illuminated...he went to a nearby large boulder and punched it as hard as he could, breaking his hand in many places. He then yelled out loud "I REFUTE THIS!".

This example is what happens when the conventionally conditioned and conceptual mind takes zen too literally. Non-existence means the boulder should not rule our thoughts in a negative fashion, thus creating a mental sticking point. It means the boulder is a boulder whether we care for it, or not. If the boulder must be moved because it is blocking the path...then get more ox to move it!

If you insult my favorite musical band I will be extremely pissed and defensive and yell at you that they made the rock and roll hall of fame and have sold 900 trillion albums and gave all the proceeds to saving the humped butt whale. I could create an extremely detailed argument.

But is the band actually insulted by you?

Of course not, I am insulted because I have an imagined investment into something I find pleasure in. Something I associate with and have allowed myself to get insulated by is creating this insult in my mind.

Yet, I was never appointed defender by the band...I am not on the payroll. Zen tells me that only WE decide to suffer over a particular issue.

This in no way means separation from "doing". The eight fold path is without merit if we shut ourselves of from what has to be done in all matters of life.

Most people I have introduced to Zen over the years have the same kind of understanding at first as you do, so I don't mean to presume Leam. It (zen buddhism) is simply different from the way we are brought up in non-asian areas. Also many western interpretations of zen are simply...bizarre to say the least.

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Last night I was working on a reply but had to run out and pick up a car. Not lift, mind you, I'm not quite that manly. Receive, pick up, take possession of. It was very difficult to focus on replying well because the car was a gift from our church to meet our family's need. I'm still kind of baffled about how to respond so you can assume "Mu Shin" is not where I'm at. :)

Conversely, as we were driving home there was a good bit of fog and the windshield clouded over for a few moments. I was *really* clear headed at that point! Any mental wandering might have caused an accident. We got home safely, with the new to us car, and life is good.

Yes, I perceive reality and judge it! It is good...I can savor these moments like a juicy steak and consume time with pleasure. WhenI need to act with clarity, like driving through the fog in an unfamilier car, my mind has to deal with the priority of the moment. Not the pleasure of the gift nor the concern with tomorrow's work or tonights lost sleep while out driving late.

I understand the performance benefit of Mu Shin, at least on a surface level, and I used to think a clear head was desireable as an overall goal. Heaven knows my youth was spent kind of puzzled and confused. Now I don't find an unjudged reality to be best in my life. I judge the gift of a car as good. I judge the conversation we're having as good. I can look back at some conversations I've had in the last few months are understand that they were not as good as I want so I am going to work to improve the interactions with those people. You should see the edits in the e-mail I sent my ex-wife! Version 1 was what I really felt, Version 2 was a bit more useful in building the relationship. Not great, but much better than #1. :)

That's a lot of why I don't think Zen, or Buddhism is the right path. Clear headedness and Right Concentration are a step up from where most people live, but it is a shallow step compared to rejoicing in the abudant life God has provided.

Truth in advertising disclaimer. No matter how strong my Christian faith, I'm willing to bet a dollar most of the people responding to my comment shoot better than I do. :cheers: <- Those a soda mugs :surprise:

Leam

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Leam good words, I believe you that zen is not your way. It is also clear that you don't need it. I have never really cared what people professed as long as they were able to live by a higher set of moral standards. If this serves to help your sphere of influence as well, then all the better.

Ultimately we are all on the same path, good talking with you!

Cheers :cheers: <-Mine is a good dark stout...or two!

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Well said Leam. I've seen a number of people interested in Buddhism decide it was not the path for them when they were explained the true meaning of nirvana, that it is not an uninterrupted high (as one person told me). Well, that and the part about doing 111,111 full body prostrations as the first step towards that goal. :rolleyes:

Here is to a great thread guys. :cheers: My non-dualistic mind does not see what appears to be my beverage as anything at all, but it sure tastes like a nice chardoney to me!

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:cheers: <-- Something dark minus an unknown. I personally like beer but it doesn't like me. Some beers, like actual Germans in Germany with names I can't spell or pronounce, are fantastic. Anything American or pseudo-German leaves me with a hangover for 2-3 days. Thus I stick with soda.

Leam

--Unenlightened but in a good crowd...

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Like Christianity, Zen and Buddism come in many forms. I am adamantly not a Buddist, but have found Japanese Zen as applied to martial arts to be very helpful. In that context, it's all about state of mind, and mastery of skills through state of mind - not religion or worship. In that context it's just philosophy or even psychology. It addresses a subject area that western thought tends to ignore - that we have a choice about our state of mind, and our emotional reactions to circumstances. That state of mind can have a significant impact on our skills. And that we can work on this through mental practice.

Try reading Musashi - The Book of Five Rings. Musashi was renowned as Japan's greatest swordsman, and credited his skill to the study of Zen. If I remember correctly (been quite a few years) there is little to nothing about Buddah, worship, or religion in his book. Zen is not a worship or a diety, it is a state of mind - a moving meditation, that can be applied to worship if you choose.

I come from the computer industry and think of it in terms of bandwidth. If your head is filled with the little voice (Zen guys call it the "monkey on your back" for good reason), fear, nervousness, pride, the mortgage, etc, you have less mental capacity available to be devoted to the task at hand - like better shooting under pressure.

It appears Leam has another way good way to get there - more power to him. My personal religious background doesn't work for this - so I'll stick to Zen.

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