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11 In The Mag At The Start Signal


Precision40

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Do what we did, starting twenty years ago. You see he doesn't rack the slide, and has no round in the chamber.

"Are you ready?" he nods. "Are you sure?" Smart shooters stop and re-chack everything. The new shooter who doesn't re-check then gets stopped, has the rule explained, and would be allowed to start over once they calm down a bit.

Experienced shooters take the hit just as the rule lays it out.

A new guy has a whole lot to take care of, and a certain amount of hand-holding is common sense and good for return customers. Someone who'se been shooting long enough to get classified is expected to knwo the rules, and pay the price.

Any match bigger than a club match, you get no help and you pay the price.

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So hypothetically speaking...and I could see this happening next year to some poor sap...if this same scenario plays out and you are at the Lim/Prod Nats, you are out of the match since there's no Open?

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So hypothetically speaking...and I could see this happening next year to some poor sap...if this same scenario plays out and you are at the Lim/Prod Nats, you are out of the match since there's no Open?

Well, you could win Open at that point. And you will get first trip to the Open prize table. Of course, there will be no Open award or prizes on the Open prize table. Or rather the Open prize table is what's left avter everybody else got their prizes.

Edited by racerba
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So hypothetically speaking...and I could see this happening next year to some poor sap...if this same scenario plays out and you are at the Lim/Prod Nats, you are out of the match since there's no Open?

Yeah --- it happened in 2003 at Barry to several people during the FGN, and prompted the rule change that allows stoking with an 11 round mag. Back then the rules were written as ten in a mag at any time, so if you stoked with 11 ---- welcome to Open....

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Flex I don't think anybody is lobbying to get the rule changed, can we not discuss the rules? It's easy to say "Bump to Open" but this is not what this discussion is about.

Rex, what's up? Isn't it alright for me to have an opinion? ...and, back it up with the rule book?

Something similar to your "hypothetical situation" happened to me in a local match. I got bumped to Open...all the newbie Production shooters beat me that day.

So hypothetically speaking...and I could see this happening next year to some poor sap...if this same scenario plays out and you are at the Lim/Prod Nats, you are out of the match since there's no Open?

Yeah --- it happened in 2003 at Barry to several people during the FGN, and prompted the rule change that allows stoking with an 11 round mag. Back then the rules were written as ten in a mag at any time, so if you stoked with 11 ---- welcome to Open....

Yeah...that really sucked for a handful of people. One of our Area GM's got bumped out of Limited-10 to Open...when there was no Open. He basically burned down a stage. The RO wasn't expecting anybody to be as faster or faster than the Super-Squad, so he started assuming that the shooter must have done something wrong. He first stated that he didn't do a reload (must have had more bullets in his mags), but the shooter had 10+1 in the gun, just like everybody else. It came out that he had put 11 in his starting mag before the beep, instead of doing the barney bullet/mag shuffle. The shooter didn't know the rule against that, but the RO did. :(

------------

It sure would be nice to get these improvements into the proposed 2008 draft rules. But, I don't know that I should proposed them, I kinda have my hands full already.

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Hypothetical situation.

You have a COF that has the standard ready position, gun loaded and holstered. A production guy or L10 guy inserts an 11rd mag and forgets to chamber the round. Start signal goes off, they realize they've forgot to LAMR, rack the slide and continue.

Bump to Open? I know what the rules say, but what do you think?

Prefaced by the above statement I still stand by my reply. AS in...what do I think is the right thing..the fair thing...etc...blah blah blah...

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How is the RO going to know there was 11 in the mag?? I accidently did the same thing last year but short of him checking my mag after the timer goes off I can't see how they could catch this. I suppose if you shoot 11 rounds before a reload they might figure it out.

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...but short of him checking my mag after the timer goes off...

That's exactly what they may do. On unloaded table starts, it's common for the clipboard RO to count shots of Lim-10 and Prod shooters to make sure they didn't fire 11 shots on the first mag. When you do a reload they can pick up your mag and add the rounds in the mag to the shots counted.

This isn't common to check this at small matches but in big matches unloaded table starts are a big gotcha.

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How is the RO going to know there was 11 in the mag?? I accidently did the same thing last year but short of him checking my mag after the timer goes off I can't see how they could catch this. I suppose if you shoot 11 rounds before a reload they might figure it out.

An experienced RO will pick it up. At big matches the second RO on a stage is usually counting shots. I have caught a few shooters shooting with more than ten in a mag.

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I think we need an option for "coach through" officially added to the rule book and to the scoring software.

I believe that would answer the bill on both sides of the arguement, and keep the new guy coming back!

Cdr,

USPSA used to offer a "Basic Practical Pistol Course" (lesson plan by John W. Wells, RM) in the late '80s, Graduates were issued a safety check card marked COACH-THRU, and the shooter's scores didn't count if they were coached.

I never saw this program implemented, but we always coach our new shooters at our club. As their performance improves, the coaching decreases.

I would like to believe this happens at all USPSA clubs. Lets face it, most new shooters are so nervous, we are all thrilled if they just hit all of the targets in a COF. By the time the new shooter has recieved an initial classification, they should be subject to the consequences of their actions. The rule book is clear on this matter.

+1 to the attitude of being the ambassadors of shooting!

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How is the RO going to know there was 11 in the mag?? I accidently did the same thing last year but short of him checking my mag after the timer goes off I can't see how they could catch this. I suppose if you shoot 11 rounds before a reload they might figure it out.

Well Yeah.... B)

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I just don't see what the problem is. You can quote me chapter and verse from the book, but 11 in the mag or 11 in the gun at the beep, hmmmm, what's the difference?

I'm not discussing unloaded gun starts so don't mention those, I'm talking loaded gun starts.

What's the difference?

Maybe we just found a rule that NEEDS to be adjusted, unlike the rules that are being considered now.

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Although I'm not an RO I do have some comments.

Pats' post #53 above is spot on. We have to work with the new shooters to get them to come back. Last thing we need is a come out once and get busted to Open guy who tells 3 of his buddies how hard assed we are. When it comes to safety issues we are hard assed. But 11 in the mag. Give it some slack at the local match level to the new shooter.

Just recently I had new shooter in my squad who was in Production. I mentioned the 10 round rule and his eyes went as big as saucers. He didn't know. He thought that he could load what his mags could hold. Did he fire more than 10 before reloading? Not that I could tell. Did he gain an advantage? Probably not. He quickly fixed his problem and went on to have a blast. No harm. No foul.

Recently I was trying my hand at Skeet. With shotgun I'm 90% a Trap shooter and tinker around with Skeet and Sporting Clays. The Clays Yoda came up and said I'd be DQ'd for a serious safety violation if it had been a match. He explained a quirk in the rules about station 8 and I dug into it further. Yup. I'd be DQ'd. Not as bad as a 180 violation in USPSA but a DQ none the less. I learned. I know now. It won't happen again.

Now me. If I had 11 in the mag at the beep. Shove me to Open with great prejudice. I know better and I screwed up.

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Hypothetical situation.

You have a COF that has the standard ready position, gun loaded and holstered. A production guy or L10 guy inserts an 11rd mag and forgets to chamber the round. Start signal goes off, they realize they've forgot to LAMR, rack the slide and continue.

Bump to Open? I know what the rules say, but what do you think?

The problem here is not so much whether to bump to Open or cut some slack, as that basically the penalty for the violation is inappropriate.

The rule should be changed to treat this as any other procedural penalty. This would take care of both the inadvertent and deliberate violations. Inadvertent=1 procedural penalty plus the time the shooter lost, etc etc. Deliberate violation=1 procedural penalty for each shot fired after advantage has been gained. No debates, and the RO can call it. Repeated violation=Match DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Pretty simple as far as I'm concerned but it would require a rule change.

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As a new shooter, a bump to open wouldn't "scare me off". rules are rules. I would expect to be made to follow them as anyone else. Also as a new shooter, i wouldn't expect my scores to be high enough to cause disruption in either division. No matter what my score sheet says, I got to play the game. :D

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Hypothetical situation.

You have a COF that has the standard ready position, gun loaded and holstered. A production guy or L10 guy inserts an 11rd mag and forgets to chamber the round. Start signal goes off, they realize they've forgot to LAMR, rack the slide and continue.

Bump to Open? I know what the rules say, but what do you think?

The problem here is not so much whether to bump to Open or cut some slack, as that basically the penalty for the violation is inappropriate.

The rule should be changed to treat this as any other procedural penalty. This would take care of both the inadvertent and deliberate violations. Inadvertent=1 procedural penalty plus the time the shooter lost, etc etc. Deliberate violation=1 procedural penalty for each shot fired after advantage has been gained. No debates, and the RO can call it. Repeated violation=Match DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Pretty simple as far as I'm concerned but it would require a rule change.

+1

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--- snip --- , as that basically the penalty for the violation is inappropriate. --- snip ---

I respectfully disagree. (I am not arguing for / against what the rules are, just for the enforcement of the rules ;) ) The equipment for each division is specified. If you choose the inappropriate equipment, you are moved to a division in which the equipment is appropriate. Simple.

Or a short version: Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. <_<

And, yes I do shoot production and no, I have not done this one (yet :rolleyes: )

Later,

Chuck

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I think this should be an RO call. The RO should be able to tell if there was intent to cheat. If the RO is not able to decide whether the shooter was trying to cheat, then decide wheather the shooter gained an advantage by the action.

If the shooter shoots a 6 round string, reloads and then moves to the next string, they didnt really gain any advantage.

No advantage, no foul.

A related question is, in the situation described above, how would the RO know?

Lee

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