Precision40 Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Hypothetical situation. You have a COF that has the standard ready position, gun loaded and holstered. A production guy or L10 guy inserts an 11rd mag and forgets to chamber the round. Start signal goes off, they realize they've forgot to LAMR, rack the slide and continue. Bump to Open? I know what the rules say, but what do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 No advantage.... No foul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 They're bumped to Open. The rules for Production and Lim10 both say 10 rounds in the magazine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 I wouldn't bump him into Open. Letter or the intent... I'm for intent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 More than 10 rounds in magazine. Bumped to Open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Club match? Have a chat with the shooter, advise that by the book they should be bumped to Open and would be at a sectional match or larger and explain why. Then let them continue in the declared division until they do it again. Sectional match or larger? Easy - apply the rule book as written. Bump to Open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 You're not doing any favors for your shooters if you use different rules locally than would be used at a sectional or Area match. If it's a new shooter, sure - give them a break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airic Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 I think this should be an RO call. The RO should be able to tell if there was intent to cheat. If the RO is not able to decide whether the shooter was trying to cheat, then decide wheather the shooter gained an advantage by the action. If the shooter shoots a 6 round string, reloads and then moves to the next string, they didnt really gain any advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRNinTX Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 The RO cannot determine a shooter's intent. The correct call is a bump to Open just like the rules state. I'm sure most shooters do not intend to break the 180, but that is a DQ and I don't think any ROs would overlook this rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Bump to Open per the USPSA rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisa006 Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Would you rather start 10 and 1 or 11 in the mag. I am with Merlin, I don't want to rack the slide once the timer has gone off and especially after the silent pull of the trigger on the first target. If it was an accident and no time was gained let it go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precision40 Posted January 1, 2007 Author Share Posted January 1, 2007 There is absolutely no advantage in this case, it's a mental malfunction. I got bumped into open last year for basically the same thing, but in my case it was started gun unloaded. At the start signal I put an 11 round mag in, racked the slide and went at it. In either case there is no advantage gained unless it's an 11rd stage. Personally I wouldn't bump anybody into open for a mistake like that, but that's just MHO. Maybe a wording problem more than anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS_A18138 Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Rex, I remember that and because of you, me and 1 other guy checked our mags and found i had loaded my mag with 9 not thinking! Saved me a trip to open class! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 The rule is black and white no grey area for the RO to make any other decision than bump the shooter to open. Is this really any different than the shooter having their start mag with 11 rds on their belt and they accidentally grab a mag that holds 10 and then never use the 11 rd mag. Per the rules if this is discovered they will be moved to open, even if they did not use the mag that had 11 rds in it. If this is a USPSA match it is governed by USPSA rules. Does not matter if it is a Level 1 or a Level 3 match. The rules need to be applied consistently. This is a perfect example why I was not in favor of changing the rule to allow 11 in the mag to start because it will cause more heartache than the old rule of only 10 rounds in the mag. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airic Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 The RO cannot determine a shooter's intent. The correct call is a bump to Open just like the rules state. I'm sure most shooters do not intend to break the 180, but that is a DQ and I don't think any ROs would overlook this rule. Making a huge safety violation is a little different determing if a shooter made a mental mistake or was trying to cheat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Making a huge safety violation is a little different determing if a shooter made a mental mistake or was trying to cheat. Not really. Rules are rules. A person's intent has nothing to do with whether black and white rules apply to the situation. We pay for our mistakes in USPSA, this isn't tee-ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airic Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Making a huge safety violation is a little different determing if a shooter made a mental mistake or was trying to cheat. Not really. Rules are rules. A person's intent has nothing to do with whether black and white rules apply to the situation. We pay for our mistakes in USPSA, this isn't tee-ball. True. Kinda sux though....spend $125-$150 on match fees, rounds for the match, trip up to the match and then get bumped to a division where you most likely will not be able to compete. With the investment we all put into this sport, a minor mistake like that should be overlooked when no competitive advantage is gained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 (edited) Airic, First off, my bad - I re-read what I wrote and it really came out dick-ish. I wasn't feeling bad or mean when I wrote it and I didn't intend it to sound that way. My apologies. I shoot Production and I've been bumped to Open for 11 in the magazine during an unloaded table start at a local match. There are so many elements of this sport that require focus and mental composure to be successful, and that's why I said running local matches with lax rules isn't doing a shooter a favor. Making this particular mistake is something you'll hopefully ever do once and never again, hopefully this mistake happens at a local match with $10 of entry fees. I realize 11 in the mag and forgetting to rack the slide is a tad different scenario than an unloaded table start. I still say bump to Open. Brand new shooters deserve consideration and I wouldn't bump them to Open on a first infraction. Anyone else making this mistake, welcome to minor Open. Edited because I cnt spppel. Edited January 1, 2007 by ihatepickles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airic Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 No offense taken. I agree with you. There is a point where you say "you should have known better". Thats why I said the RO should have discretion, but then again...that could lead to claims of unfair calls and bias. Bah screw it, lets just go shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazos SC Shooter Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 In this hypothetical, you said they forgot to LAMR. Wouldn't this be a RO problem? If I was the RO, I would stop the shooter, paste any targets and start them again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 OK, We have to make sure we all understand the start here. It is a loaded gun start, which is 1 +10 and no more than 10 in a mag after the beep. Maximum of 11 in the gun at the start or after an reload. SO the letter of the rule is 10 in mag, but the intent is...? I would not bump the shooter as no advantage was gained. In point of fact, he lost time. Now, if he rack a round in and then put the 11 round mag in, we would have a problem. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenTX Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 As harsh as it is, bump to Open. You are responsible for your equipment. If you have a 126mm mag and buy a Dawson +2 basepad it should fit the gauge for Limited. However, if it does not fit the gauge it is a Bump to Open, even if it does not allow you to get an extra round in the mag over a legal mag. There are at least two differnet length Dawson +2 pads, one fits the gauge and one does not. Without a gauge you have no way of knowing just by looking. No intent, no advantage, but illegal for Limited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precision40 Posted January 1, 2007 Author Share Posted January 1, 2007 Rex, I remember that and because of you, me and 1 other guy checked our mags and found i had loaded my mag with 9 not thinking! Saved me a trip to open class! Glad I could help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 In this hypothetical, you said they forgot to LAMR.Wouldn't this be a RO problem? If I was the RO, I would stop the shooter, paste any targets and start them again. Well, here's the thing. The RO could say something when the shooter reholstered without racking the slide but the rules specifically state this isn't permitted. The problem is that once LAMR has been given, the CoF has started and the rule says no coaching once the CoF has started (see 8.6 in the current book). Regardless, I've seen RO on numerous occasions whisper in the shooters ear when they've forgotten to rack the slide. But... It's not the RO's responsibility to LAMR. I've seen the same kind of thing go down when a shooter puts one in the chamber, ejects the magazine, and fails to put a fresh mag in the gun before reholstering. Again, the RO often leans in and whispers in the shooter's ear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 I wouldn't like it ---- but I'd bump the shooter to Open, because it's what the rulebook calls for. FWIW ---- I shoot mostly production and load all my mags with ten rounds, precisely to avoid any possibility of making this mistake. The rule got changed to allow 11 in the mag at LAMR on loaded gun starts, after a couple of shooters, including a sponsored one, got bumped to open at the Factory Gun Nationals. Think shooting in a non-competitive division's bad --- try shooting in a non-recognized one.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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