Course Design

[38supPat]

I think it would reduce the advantage (somewhat) that the Open Division shooters have with their 29 round big sticks while making the SS guys better able to push the speed limit with out such a big catastrophy factor. That's not saying the SS guys will consistently beat the Open guys, but they would be closer; and on occasion a hot SS driver could actually be very competetive with the other three semi-auto divisions.

If we take away the Major scoring of the "minor calibers", i.e. less than .40 this would be even more possible.

And, I am ONLY half joking!!!

Don't joke at all...

You nailed it...like I have said all along...make major 40/10 everywhere and hold the magazines to what fits flushin the pistol...

I am sure Scott R is too young to remember when everyone shot heads up and it was run what you brung...this stuff about only competing within your division is a "feel good" thing...a politically correct statement

The Open shooters have had it their way for a long time...lets get real, and tighten up all the auto divisions...make 40/10 major and no extended mags or basepads...it will teach the Open shooters how to count again...

Ahh, but I remember those days.

Instead of limiting then what the top guys were shooting, they created Limited class (Standard) and ever since then we've had top listen to Limited/production/SS/rev/Lim 10 complain that their scores are not competitive with open, or that it's not fair that open has 29 rounds etc.

To be honest, you pick your division, you shoot in it and who cares what the others are doing. It's like a NASCAR driver complaining about what an F1 car has.....

I shoot an Open .38, If I want to shoot limited or limited 10 or SS, I know going in that A) I have to reload more, So I'd better practice. I'd better be able to use iron sights, so if I have to shoot a 50yd popper, I'd better practice shooting accurately. and C) I'm not competing directly against Open, I only have to beat those in my division.

I remember the old days, 50 yd poppers with Iron sights was not unusual, hell dots weren't in use yet. In fact remember back to the first US Nationals that was won with a dot (1990, Jerry Barnhart) nobody expected a dot gun to shoot the match, they expected the hard targets they put up would be solely shot by guys with Iron sights, it just happened 1 guy showed up with a dot, and if I recall, he didn't exactly trounce everyone.

Here's a stage from the '87 Nationals...loooong before optics came in. Notice half of the strings are from 50 yds!

Standards 1987

RULES: Practical Shooting Handbook, Latest Edition COURSE DESIGNER: US Nationals ‘87 Design Team

START POSITION: Standing relaxed, hands at sides.

STAGE PROCEDURE

Time for all strings is five (5) seconds.

(NOTE: You may fire all rounds at the same target or

any combination of targets during strings 1, 2, and 3.)

String 1 (STANDING, 6 Rounds, 50 Yards) On signal,

engage target(s) from behind the fault line.

String 2 (KNEELING, 6 Rounds, 50 Yards) On signal,

engage target(s) from kneeling position from behind the

fault line.

String 3 (PRONE, 6 Rounds, 50 Yards) On signal, draw

THEN go prone and engage target(s) from behind the

fault line.

String 4 (STRONG HAND ONLY, 6 Rounds, 20 Yards)

On signal, engage EACH target with two rounds from

Box B only.

String 5 (WEAK HAND ONLY, 6 Rounds, 15 Yards)

On signal, engage EACH target with two rounds from

Box C only.

String 6 (RELOAD, 6 Rounds, 15 Yards) On signal,

engage EACH target with one round, perform a

mandatory reload, and re-engage EACH target with

one round, from Box C only.

SCORING

SCORING: Fixed Time, 36 rounds, 180 points

TARGETS: 3 IPSC

SCORED HITS: Up to 12 per target

START-STOP: Audible - Last shot

PENALTIES: Procedural. -10

Extra shot. -10

Extra hit. -10

Overtime shot. -5

From 1987 USPSA Nationals

As far as capacity affecting the outcome, here in Canada we are limited to 10 rounds in all divisions, at the Canadian Nationals the first 10 stages the hit factors went something like this:

Open Standard

1) 10.11 8.83

2) 6.09 5.34

3) 5.80 5.31

4) 6.18 5.89

5) 3.25 2.70

6) 7.63 6.16

7) 5.21 4.50

8) 5.94 5.05

9) 9.50 8.67

10 ) 9.71 8.73

As you can see Open clearly was ahead on all stages, and the 7 - 10 hf stages (which would be hoser friendly or up close stages where the seperation of Iron sights and scopes would be not as much) the difference in hf was even bigger.. and thats with exactly the same capacity and reloads

The reality is each division is scored seperately, and you only compete against your own. Any other comparison is of your own doing and doesn't affect the match.

Open has no 'advantage' over Limited/SS or any other division, we're not shooting against you, and you're not shooting against us.

Sounds like some people have Open envy

[ima45dv8]

When I look at combined results, I don't envision that I was shooting against all the Open guys.

Just the ones I beat.

[XRe]

When I look at combined results, I don't envision that I was shooting against all the Open guys.

Just the ones I beat.

:lol:

[SmittyFL]

Hey Z,

You'd better rethink shooting SS at the FL Open!!!

[zhunter]

Hey Z,

You'd better rethink shooting SS at the FL Open!!!

NO WAY, I am shootin' SS fer sure!!!

Should I bring more that 5 mags?

[BSeevers]

I am with Pat on this one and don't get it why this is even a discussion.

If you shoot SS and have to do 4 standing reloads. Who cares? You are competiting against people with basically the same gun. Rev/Limited 6 division has to shoot and have a lot of standing and reloading almost by definition. My gosh they hold 6 rds, How so 1800's. Yea sometimes 6 neutral works but you can't get a fun diverse and challenging match worrying about stuff like that every time.

Guess what I won a lot of matches with my sub par 27 rd big stick in Open. Most have a 29 and there is rumor of a 30 rd. Its about the shooting.

Yea I also think the X rds from a position rule is stupid. It is kind of causes whining. See my above for why I believe this. Seriously I think shooting an occasional stand and shoot 13 rds from a position is fine. I mean for all divisions. Just like any shooting test it shouldn't happen every time.

I also see people do this by choice even though matches are set up with the X rd rule. They CHOOSE to move up and shoot 12 shots in Production from one position because its easier.

Why does a SS shooter even care how and where an Open(don't forget to attack Limited too they got those 20 rd trainer big sticks) shooter reloads?

And when I shoot Pro/L10 or SS I know I won't. I am there to win.

Edited December 19, 2006 by BSeevers

[zhunter]

(don't forget to attack Limited too they got those 20 rd trainer big sticks)

Guess what, MY Limited mags hold 21, so there

I understand that different divisions have different rules etc....

I am comfortable with standing reloads, I know that is gonna happen in SS, but to have an entire stage where EVERY array requires a standing reload is just poor course design.

I guess we just need to agree to disagree on this one. I can live with that.

Edited December 19, 2006 by zhunter

[JFD]

In a sport of 9 round arrays, nobody should be surprised that they are going to be "burned" from time to time if they choose to shoot a provisional division that only allows 8 rounds in a mag.

I'd be interested to know how the complaint to the stage designer worked out. Around here you might be seeing a 9 round array for the next 6 months for complaining about a perfectly legal stage.

Now if you had made the choice to shoot minor, you'd have had enough ammo.

[zhunter]

The conversation/discussion went very well.

He is an open shooter that had not thought of the SS issue.

That club, one which I don't shoot very often, even tho it is the closest to my home, very rarely ahs SS shooters. I was the ONLY one this past weekend. Other local matches I shoot have had up to 25% SS shooters.

SS is alive and well in FLORIDA

[LPatterson]

we were going back to 8 round stages

I hope you mean "8 round arrays" Otherwise, I'm gonna go shoot IDPA....

Typographical DQ, I meant arrays.

[Nemo]

Screw sensitivity!

If you build it, I'll shoot it.

[Nik Habicht]

Should I bring more that 5 mags?

Z,

I carry six mag pouches on my belt in production. Usually one of those winds up in the gun, but every once in a while I trip across a stage where I want all six on the belt. Usually those are the stages that don't have real arrays, per se ---- you might start facing a single target, and it might make sense to do a reload immediately after that target.....

So, yeah ---- I'm pretty sure I'd have seven pouches on a single stack belt.....

[Waltermitty]

we were going back to 8 round stages

I hope you mean "8 round arrays" Otherwise, I'm gonna go shoot IDPA....

Typographical DQ, I meant arrays.

DQ? I woulda charged one Procedural max after the FTTR.

[Jim Norman]

I am comfortable with stganding reloads, I know that is gonna happen in SS, but to have an entire stage where EVERY array requires a standing reload is jsut poor course design.

Z, I can agree with you in the above. A standing reload is OK, forcing 4 standing reloads on 3 arrays is a poor design. Put a couple targets in between the current shooting positions so that you shoot them on the move and reduce the fixed positions to 8 rounds, or in the case of maybe the last spot, 9 rounds and you have a challenging and viable COF for all divisions.

As you alluded to in a different post the MD may be an accomplished Open shooter, but have no or little experiance shooting Prod/L-10, SS or Revo.

At our club we always try to set up a stage so that there are truly viable places to engage targets even though there may be places where you can stand and shoot 12 or more rounds, it won't be the only place or even likely the best place.

That I think is one problem that some people have. They see a spot where they can shoot 12 rounds and fail to see where they can split that into two or more positions. However as I said above, IF it cannot be split, it is a bad course design.

I am dead set agains a limit of available shoots, I can see a need for a limit on REQUIRED shoots from one position. And as I stated in an earlier post, we need to be sure that any rule that says something to the effect of " A shooter may not engage targets so as to eliminate a later shooting position" must be quashed! So what if I decide to shot a 35 yard plate that another shooter decides to run 20 yards up first. I had to slow down to aim that shot, maybe I saw a way that my old bones could complete the COF with out trying to run faster than JJ.

That said, there is so much we need to do to educate our designers. THe other day we had a really nice COF at a match. Illeagal but nice. % targets, two shoots each on string one, advancing from the start line. Record the time, then re-engage the same 5 targets retreatin back to the start line. Score best 4 hits, Comstock.

Now, we all decided that it could be shot within the WSB by shooting 4 shoots on each, then on the second string firing only one shot. All the targets had been engaged and there was no restriction on stacking.

To make it legal, we needed to make the COF Virginia Count. AND we needed a prohibition on stacking. We figured the winnig time by stacking could have been about 8 seconds. The winning time was around 13 doing it as it was intended. No one apparently took the easy way out.

So, what am I saying here? We need to simplfy the rules of course design, Sort of a step by step, you can do this, you can't do that sort of a list so that you don't have to interpret the rule book in order to design a stage. Then again, I could be wrong.

Jim

[JFD]

I'm glad to hear the discussion went well. I had a feeling SS shooters might have been targeted for evil with that kind of start.

25% is pretty solid attendance. So far we've seen very few SS shooters.

[zhunter]

Jim

Those are some good thoughts. Like I said earlier, I am very aware of the limitations of the equipment I have chosen. I would just like a bit of understanding in course design, and that is the WHOLE point of this thread!!!!!

I have shot a single target on the move with a full magazine only to reloaded on several occassions to move into an array to have a full magazine. I understand the game, but just don't like a poorly thoughtout stage design.

[38supPat]

I showed up at a match once with a buddy, when he hauled his 625 out of his bag at the safty table, the MD's and CRO's jaws dropped. They had a bunch of 8 round stages (stand and shoot) and strings. They felt bad because they really didn't believe anyone would show up with a wheel gun. They apologized profusely, but my buddy said, "Hey, it was my choice to bring a revolver, I'll deal with it." and that was it..it was a bit of a silly match anyways. All start positions were wrists above sholders regardless of the scenario (remember those?) eg...water skiing, wrists above shoulders; bbqing, wrists above shoulders; riding a lawn mower, wrists above shoulders...lol

[itento]

When I took the CRO Final I thought "how hard can this be, I design stages every month". Well, my design went through numerous revisions before being accepted. This was quite a learning experience for me. My Mentor's critique included:

This where we get into one of the "gray areas": in my opinion. I try to look at stages from the eyes of a single stack shooter with nine rounds in the gun. The layout of Gauntlet pretty much forces the shooter to engage T1-4, reload, engage T5-8 and then you are standing there at T9 with only one round left. This forces the shooter to do a standing reload. You have created a "view". The space between T8 and T9 is not large enough for a moving reload. If there were some other reasonable options it would be different. You are also creating the same situation between T10 and the steel. Even a limited shooter with 20 rounds will be forced into a standing reload at some point.

Even though technically you may not be breaking any rules you are building a problem into the design. This is often the difference between a good stage that shooters enjoy, or one they walk away from cussing the designer.

Thanks Carl!

While it helps to have a really experience mentor, I think it would be nice to have a workbook of do's and don'ts or examples available to every club.

[EricW]

Take a look at some IPSC / European COF's sometime. Luca Zolla sent me the stage designs for the 2006 Italian nationals. I counted the # of target arrays on one hand and still had fingers left over. The 8/9 rounds from every position is an American mentality thing. I'm OK with it on occasion, but it gets really old in a hurry.

Some of it is due to uncreative stage design. Some of it is due to squeezing high round count COFs onto bays that really aren't big enough to support them. A lot of it is the ingrained belief that nobody can shoot a nicely designed, 16 round COF and still have fun doing it.

Edited December 20, 2006 by EricW

[rgkeller]

Having come into the sport shotting Limited and not having a care in the world about course design and the number of shots in an array, shooting Single Stack makes a difference!!!

Maybe this should be in the "What I Hate" section, but....

Today's match had a 9 shot array to end a stage. I can hear it now, 8 in the mag and one in the chamber makes 9, but I had a miss on a plate and now I was faced with reloading for a make-up/miss or taking the miss. Obviously it is a quick decision, but I choose to take the miss.

I was LESS than impressed with the course design, and, in a diplomatic manner, voiced my concerns to the course designer.

The VERY next stage started out with a 7 shot array and then had a target that had to be engaged with 2 shots before entering a box that required 8 shots. So, the first array, which started with an empty gun on table, i.e. starting with only 8 in the mag, then drop the mag during movement and shooting the target to enter the box, reloading and then engaging the 8 in the next array. This stage REQUIRED 5 mag changes for a Single Stack.

Where is the love? Imagine if there was a Revo shooter?

PLEASE, to all course designers, show us the love!!!!!

The first stage you discuss required no standing reloads IF the stage had been shot as described in the walk through. Since the first squad that shot the stage screwed it up because the RO in charge did not pay attention, the MD decided (because of time constraints) to change the stage to the three position nine shots at each spot that the screwed up squad shot. That required TWO standing reloads - unless the SS shooter missed a ten yard steel plate.

The second stage under discussion had seven rounds, two rounds running, then eight, eight and seven. NO standing reloads. Four total reloads for a SS shooter UNLESS the shooter missed a steel.

SS is all about reloading and not missing.

The club discussed puts on two very good five or six stage matches a month. They are challenging and give the SS shooter a real opportunity to practice those reloads and accuracy. Shooting L10 there is the option for those not inclined to take advantage of the practice offered.

[gino_aki]

We had to start the the stage with ONLY 8 in the gun on a 9 shot array that required a reload at each different shooting position upon arrival at the new shooting location. SO, it was a BAD STAGE DESIGN!!!!

Not to start the whole "real" versus "sport" debate or drift the thread too much but would you complain about a standing reload if you had three baddies charging you (two shots each) and an attack dog (three shots cuz we all know how tuff dogs are) or would you just do it as fast as you could and plug them again/engage the next set of bad guys or the rest of their dogs?

I don't see where course design should "cater" to any division rather than present an interesting problem and then let you solve to the best of your ability. Looking beyond the veil of your likes or dislikes as to the smoothness of the "flow" through the COF, are the awkward portions of a stage teaching you anything about your shooting or decision making ability? If you're honest with yourself, I'd bet they are.