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Open Gun for Beginner...


Ron Ankeny

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My vision sucks and my eye doctor wants to put me into tri-focals and he also wants to increase the strength of the prisms that are used to correct my tendency towards double vision. I can no longer get a clear sight picture and the fuzzy one that I can get is slow and there are two of them, one on top of the other. I think an optic would solve a lot of problems and I am kicking myself in the butt for not buying one of Tawn Argeris' open pistols when I had the chance.

I know damn near nothing about open guns other than a lot of the better shooters continue to use the older technology and every gunsmith on the planet is promoting their new pistols with light slides, whizz kidd comps, and ported barrels. There is only one guy in the three clubs where I shoot that uses an open pistol, and he went to it because of his vision. I shot his old Caspian in 9x21 with an older C'More and it seemed cool to me. I don't have the opportunity to try out open guns so I am going to end up buying one sight unseen (no pun intended).

I know this is probably an unrealistic question, but can any of you guys more or less put open guns into a nutshell? What is the advantage to a plain old comp. vs. a comp and tri-brid? Is C-More really the best way to go for a sighting system? Will a used gun made for the old power factor function OK with the new power factor? Should I just say screw it and stick with the iron sights and settle for a random distribution of bullet holes somewhere on the brown? Thanks and forgive me for my ignorance.

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  Ron,

   I have no idea how close you are to the Denver-area clubs, but you should see if you can meet up with Ara Malajian when he heads down there and hitch a ride with him. I'm certain there are a bunch of guys down there that would let you try out their Open guns; worth a "shot"!

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Ron

In this months Handgunner they take a look at the top shooters guns at Open Nationals. Most are using the same gun they used 5+ years ago. I think the equipment race has stablized. You need a comp and holes can be added later by a good pistolsmith. C-more is my choice. It works, used by a vast majority of shooters. Why be the test pilot for the Oki/or New scopes.

I have seen a lot of hacked open guns and will say you need one that works especially since it sounds like there is a smith nearby. Caliber, 9 mm only unless budget constraint, doesn't matter. I like 38 Super. again majority shoot it and I have personally shot it for over 10 years. Feeding function is a matter of a proper assembled pistol. (9x23/TJ/Super comp) fix a problem that I and thousands of Super owners don't have. if you get a deal on a 9x23 nothing wrong with that.  Again a proper assembled gun should work with 140-190 power factor. I am on the same C-more and gun since 96?? I think. I was selling my gun over the winter to build a new one. I was considering building a shorter, lighter gun but really feel that it would have given me a less than 1% advantage. No, Its no for sale til October :-)

There is a little learning curve with open, the first time you shoot it you will probably say Boy is that thing violent. It is. The comp is to harness the Big Boom of 1450 FPS and slam the gun down for the next shot. Most people that shoot a dot for the first time, miss a lot. They see so much more, can shoot faster, and push the sights too far. Its just like iron sights in that you must shoot the sights. Good luck and if you ever want to shoot my gun you may. I go to a few big matches, maybe not in your area? Good luck

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Ron,

I think our very own Patrick Sweeney wrote the article that BillS refers to.  All the big dogs are using there old tried-n-true guns.  

Since the drop to 165pf it seems that some have tried bringing their charge down.  My take is that they often go back to the load that worked at 175pf.  I don't know if that is really the case, or just my perception.  And, it may have something to do with the hassle of truely developing a 165pf load (in those guns).

?

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Ron;

One way to go is to look around for someone selling their open gun, esp. if your not so sure, your investing less money (there seems to be a lot of them)...many times it's a perfectly fine gun....just the person is a tech freak and wants something new, or they're getting out of open.

Another cool thing about this is that often times they are selling the whole s**terie; gun, mags, brass.  Also, they have figured out what works in the gun.  New open guns sometimes need to be tweaked to death before running flawlessly.  P9's and Witnesses can be had pretty cheap; I like mine, but I shoot it 'cause it's all I got....I prob. wouldn't do it again.

I hear some people say if you're thinking of shooting a C-More, start with it.  Some say C-More people can't switch well to tubes, and vice-versa.  I don't know if that's true or not.  Stay away from the small tube scopes like the PDP2.  You can't see a friggin' thing!

With the lower power factor smaller comps should work fine.  I use a 4-port cone with 124 gr. bullets and I can't believe its major.  Also, you  can use a little faster powder, get a little more gas going, lighter bullet....it all depends on how you want to balance noise and recoil.

In the end, we all prob. think the best thing is to shoot some guns.  Just ask.  Most people are happy to show off their gat!  I'll be at Area 1 if you're desperate enough to shoot a P9.....

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Here's my non-technical take

First, it should be an S_I frame.  

Next, comps & ports are personal preference.   More holes means more powder means more "violence".  (However, this really is a non issue - my gun has the MOST holes possible and I'm just a wussy grrl)!

There is very little difference in felt recoil between 165 and 175.

Heavier guns have less felt recoil but don't index as fast as the super lights.

C-more is the only way to go, as someone else mentioned - it's tried and true - do YOU wanna be a beta tester :-)

Lastly, you WILL need a gunsmith along with your open gun.  If there's not one in your area, be absolutely sure to buy a "known" used gun.  That means one from a top shooter, or one that the smith is well known (EGW, Dawson, Limcat, Factory ....) and the last must in my book is to never ever buy from someone who worked on it themselves (unless of course they're in the categories mentioned above

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I agree with Kath with one exception - the scope

The last time I checked, Doug Koenig shoots a tube and he seems to do allright. I have also noticed that several other top shooters use the c-more while others use the slide mounted optima/firepoint.

I think that you need to look at what works for you.  

But Kath is right on about not getting one from unknown gunplumber. You will have nothing but problems.

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Ron,

My only experience with an Open blaster is the 19 rounds I put through ShooterGrrl's (thanks again by the way!), but really think hard about buying a used package from someone else.  I bought someone else's complete Limited setup and haven't had to tune a damn thing.  That really has lowered the learning curve for me.  I'm very happy about it all so far.  If I was in the position of having to tune mags, springs, and gun for weeks on end like some of these guys, I don't think I'd feel the same way.

My $.02,

E

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Hi Ron.

I guess you gave up on building an open 40 out of your 6" limited gun, huh. Well there is still time to try to talk you into it. Anyways, I would not recommend a C-more. I started with one, shot it for a year and a half and still lost the dot when ever my grip was wrong or had to change hands. It's just to hard to find it without some kind of reference point on the scope or gun. I even made an upside down mount for it so the window was right on top of the slide. That worked really well, because the dot was right where iron sights would be. Then the Adco shorty tube scopes came out, and I put one on my gun. First match, first stage, first draw, I had a perfect sight picture and if I lost the dot at all, all I had to was line up the inside of the tube and the dot came back. Bottom line, the tube scopes are easier to use. C-more's work well if you have the time to shoot every day and shoot from mussle memory only.

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If you decide to buy new, check this one out.

http://www.brazoscustom.com/Home.htm

I know several open shooters going to shorter guns and I think it might be the ticket. The new IMM from SV is hot too, just ask Pat.

Hmmmm... the link does not go where I ment it to go. I ment it to go to the BCG ProSX. Commander length.

(Edited by Singlestack at 8:19 am on April 11, 2002)

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Go for it ron, you won't be sorry. The most important part like shooter grrl sez , is the gunsmith. I am lucky that i have mine in town and he takes care of things right away . ( actually , he has to since i won't leave until he does.)  I like the c-more because it is tried and true , you have to practice with it though because the dot is harder to find for people new to the scope. I used to shoot a hybrid and they do shoot flatter but you pay for it with the bone jarring blast . Some type of rimless brass is definitely the way to go ,the magazine works much better. Limcat  does an excellent job by the way.

James Ong

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Team GE:

I spoke to Benny Hill and to Bob Londrigan about making the 6 inch .40 into an open gun. Benny thought I was nuts. Bob said he would do it, but the price is pretty darn steep. Heck, you have a vertical milling machine don't you? Maybe you could do it in your spare time? Yeah, what spare time?  I really messed up when I passed on Tawn's used pistol.

Vision isn't my only consideration either. I don't want to be a cry baby, but I am concerned about all of this bone jarring business that people keep telling me about. I eat Celebrex for breakfast and supper to keep my arthritis under control, my tendonitis is out of hand, and the carpal tunnel crap is really pi$$ing me off. If open guns really are that violent, then maybe I need to scope a limited pistol and go minor.

What I really want is an optical sight (I shot a scope for years on my Bianchi revolver) and a pistol that a 12 year old girl could handle. No offense intended Shooter Grrl.

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Ron,

    Here's my $.02 (if its even worth that).  From that last description, I think you would be better served by an older, heavier open gun.  I had the opportunity to handle the latest lightweight Dawson offering, and it was very nice.  Shot very flat and handled quickly, but more violent than some of the other older open guns I have fired.  (It's also $4500...).  The C-more vs. tube scope is an interesting argument.  What about a Holosight?  Barnhart likes 'em, and their biggest drawback is they are heavy I believe.  Should just make the gun shoot softer (and handle a little slower).  Shooter Grrl has a lot of good info in her post.  

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CZ makes a comped gun in either 9 or 40 that sells for $1119.95 at J&G sales.  The web site is  here.  Brownells sells extended base pads for the mags.  It doesn't have a scope mount but you could have that done and still be far under the cost of an S_I open gun.

Just an idea,

-jhgtyre

For anyone who looks at these you want the CZ75B Champion, not the IPSC.  The IPSC uses a different magazine that could be difficult to find high caps for.

(Edited by jhgtyre at 12:26 pm on April 11, 2002)

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I think people have a tendancy to over exagerate the viciousness of open guns. I have shot the IMM open from SV and a bunch with the tribrid and regular comps. They are loud but I wouldn't say violent or any of the other things. It is a different type of recoil. Check out EGW's comps. George did my p-16 into an open .40 it has a 5 up and 2 on each side. Flat and soft. It is a heavier gun than the S_I. I think most people are reacting to the blast more than the recoil. Try a couple out and see what you like or don't like. Give George a call and talk to him. I'm sure he will rework your 6". His waiting list is long but he builds guns that run like that damn bunny! (215)348-9892.

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10-4 on the that violence stuff.

One of the reasons I've never left open is because the constant recoil of un-comped pistols gets on my nerves.

I've got an EGW 4 port comp on my P9, and at 165 pf, it's like.....I dunno....it's just a hell of a lot nicer than at 180 pf. or so.  Just don't go too light on the bullet and spring, and stay away from the hybrid ports. I don't think they help as much as they add to muzzle blast.

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Okay - so here's my take on this "violence" issue... it doesn't bother you when you're the shooter - it only bugs the RO's and spectator's :-)  

The recoil is totally different on an open gun than ANY other gun I've fired.  My blaster is super heavy, with a shitload of holes and fast powder and light bullets, but the recoil does NOT bother my wrist!!!!  (I have carpal tunnel and have broken it twice!)  It really does push back, not up nor does it twist.  Pretty damn cool rocket science, IMHO :-)

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Quote: from Shooter Grrl on 5:05 pm on April 11, 2002

Okay - so here's my take on this "violence" issue... it doesn't bother you when you're the shooter - it only bugs the RO's and spectator's :-)  


What she said. The blast is far worse to the sides than it is right behind the gun. When I'm shooting, I do not notice it at all. When I'm ROing my wife who shoots an identical gun and load, I think "damn that's loud".

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Thanks guys, and gals. I was RO for a guy shooting an open gun one tme. The COF required the shooter to kneel and I was standing above the guy when he let 'er rip. I know what you mean about blasting the RO. :-)

I am getting a lot of good information here. I talked with Brian and Tawn last fall, and I have also spoken to several of the major gunsmiths. For what it's worth, I just got off of the phone with George at EGW and he told me exactly the same thing that Brian and Tawn told me.

Where I screwed up was listening to gunsmiths who want to sell me their newest whizz kid space pistol. Like George told me, the market can be competitive and some people forget that they are in the "service industry".  

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Ron.

The .40 doesn't have the "violent" vibration that the supers do. As Chriss Grube said, the .40 is soft and flat, with very predictable recoil. The heavier the gun, the less recoil you will feel. Keep the reciprocating weight light, and the gun will cycle fast. A shorter slide/comp is better than longer for good gun movement.

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George is a good guy..and he'll tell it straight up..He just finished a gun for me..we had talked about my likes and dislikes..and it pretty much jived..

we ended up with a lightened slide with a coned straight comp..otherwise..I let him use his expertise..It is a little longer than I expected..but it doesn't handle slow at all..

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Ron,

You just found out why I won't use anybody but George! He is a no BS type guy. He won't waste your money on things you don't need just because it is new. I talked to a couple other smiths and they tried to sell me everything including the kitchen sink. You can't go wrong using EGW. George stands behind is guns and work.

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Tawn and Brian gave you good advice; I bought Tawn's old open blaster and while I am a total hack with ANY handgun, I lent it to Phil Strader this past weekend for a plate rack side match at the sectional.  Unofficially, Phil mowed down all 6 plates in 1.97 seconds with that old SV - and he is not even an open gun shooter. With his 165PF limited 40, he did 2 runs at 3.01 and 3.00 seconds. As for the old open gun, Tawn put a straight 4 port comp on it and ran both with and without hybrids (no hybrids won).  Buy the best of what you can afford and expect to spend $$$ on practice ammo and range time. Let us know what works for you.

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Carlos, you forget, Phil's not like the rest of us. Something about getting bit by a radioactive roadrunner....

My very, very limited open gun experince echos what's been said. Hybrid guns shoot flatter but are harder to track the dot on, possibly because you have less time to do so(the 100 or so rounds of 38 super I've shot through open guns is not enough to make a good judgement). One thing I found interesting and disconcerting first time I shot an open gun though, you can see your self flinch. Diagnostically great, not so great for the comfort level though.

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