Is Titegroup

[JFD]

I switched my wife over to a 134 PF Titegroup/165 Rainier FP load after roughly 400 rounds of testing in temps ranging from 50 degrees to 60 degrees.

At the Toys for Tots match in Columbia she had major problems with brass not ejecting completely, just like I've seen W231 do in cold weather in some minor .38 Super loads I used to shoot in IDPA. I'm guessing the temperature was in the high 30s by the time we started shooting.

She had it happen 4 times on the first stage, then it was a little better on the next 3 stages, but I had her putting her mags in her pockets to warm them up. It ran perfectly after I started wrapping the mags in "Hot Hands" after the first 4 stages. Of course by that time the ambient temperature was a little over 50 degrees.

I realize this is my fault for making a change before a match, but I took a half day off from work just to run 300 rounds through the gun to get it sighted in and function tested the day before the match. I never thought that the colder temperature might cause her Limited G35 to choke on this ammo.

Now I've got 1700 rounds of "summer ammo", and I'm not at all confident that her 135 PF 180 grain Titegroup loads would have performed better.

I was using the same Titegroup and Federal primers in my long loaded major .40 loads without a problem. Both guns were lubed with SG Lite, but I wiped most off of her gun after the 1st stage.

She maintained her calm pretty well, but I wouldn't have stopped her if she decided I needed to be pistol-whipped.

Anyone else had a problem with Titegroup in cold weather?

[chrisa006]

What recoil spring weight in the 35? Hopefully you are at 14LBS. I was always carefull with titegroup, I came close to going minor in the cold.

[HSMITH]

Yes, TG gets slow in the cold. Almost as bad as 231.

For minor loads you will like plain Clays a lot better if you try it. It gets slower in the cold too, but not as bad.

[Darrell]

Here is chrono data with my loads and tight group on two different days. On 12/1 the temp was in the high 40's and I got 928 fps, today it was low 70's I got 971. So with no other changes other than temp it got faster as it got warmer.

Load was 180 Zero jhp over 4.8 of T. G. and OAL was 1.200. shot from my Brazos SC Pro .40 limited gun.

Edited December 12, 2006 by Darrell

[JFD]

I've got a 13 lb spring in the G35.

In SC it's rare to shoot in the cold we had last Saturday morning, so this isn't something that will be a real problem, especially now that I'm aware of what's going on.

The biggest problem was my wife was a victim of my stupidity. This was the closest thing to a "big" match she's shot to date, and I robbed her of an opportunity to finish much higher than she did.

So far I haven't found a Clays load that shoots or feels as good as Titegroup, but I haven't experimented a lot with it. I have a ton of it from when we were shooting .45s in L-10.

If I was to stick with Titegroup, are there any suggestions for a target PF? Should I load to 150 PF to make sure the gun will run, or what? She shot major PF .45 loads in my Kimber, so she's no wuss about a little recoil.

What powder is the most stable in cold weather? We probably won't need 500 rounds a year of "winter loads" so price is no object.

Thanks for the help so far.

[HSMITH]

Rifle primers help if you aren't using them already, TG gets a LOT more consistent with them regardless of temps. You might have problems with them if you are light springing your Glock. I also thing TG wants major load pressures to get consistent.

Try 3.2 grains of Clays with a jacketed 180 and rifle primers for your Glock and cold weather, you can also put them in a cooler on ice to see what the chrono has to say about cold temps. In my Glocks it runs 145ish PF, but feels a lot softer than it is, it is consistent and clean as well.

[kimel]

The temperature thing has been debated several times here before. A search will turn up the threads if you are interested.

What it boils down to is that every load is going to be temperature sensitive because everything expands/contracts with changes in temperature. Since bullets and barrels are made of dissimilar materials they will expand/contract at diffent rates so pressures are going to change and thereby velocities will change.

With many loads the sensitivity to cold tends to show up at the low end of the power factors...especially with the first several shots. As the gun warms up and lube gets looser, barrel/frame/slide warm up, etc the velocity will change as well. If you are doing slower fire strings across the chrono the heat in the barrel will warm the rounds a bit and velocities will start to climb.

Using rifle or magnum primers is consistently pointed to in order to make loads more consistent. Haven't tried it myself, yet.

[JFD]

Rifle primers aren't possible with this trigger job.

I think the best bet right now is to just bump the load up and wait for another cold snap to test it.

Thanks to everyone.

[Flexmoney]

Jerry,

I haven't done any testing, and I'm not drawing any conclusions...not at all. I would like to throw a few things out for consideration.

TG being temperature sensitive is certainly plausible.

On the other hand, we've been talking about TG on this forum for years now, and just recently some questions about it's temp. sensitivity have come up.

It might be worth noting that these questions have come from the more temperate sections of the country...shooter that aren't often exposed to the cold weather ranges as much as others.

In my experience, and I hate to say this out loud, women some shooters can sometimes have trouble with the Glock. It tends to be a matter of not gripping the gun hard enough. Add some unexpected cold weather and cold hands...

And, it could be a combination of all these things.

[hitman]

OVL High Low AVG. PF Temp.

1.18 942 926 932 167.7 75

1.18 972 940 951 171.1 60

1.18 968 923 940 169.2 55

4.7 GR.

All from the same 50 round test batch. Not sure how or why the 55 deg. came out higher than at 75.

[Jack Suber]

Jerry,

To start - Happy Birthday! I hope you are enjoying it.

I have been using Titegrooup for years. My son John used it at minor PF until I switched him to Clays - then he went to the Dark Side this summer. I really have not seen any "signifcant" velocity changes with TG in cold weather, even at minor PF. John shot one of my Edges (a new really tight gun) last year in the cold and it functioned fine.

However, what has effected the functioning of the gun was the lube. At the T4T match, I had to switch guns because my primary broke. My backup was not "set-up" for cold weather - meaning that I had the guiderod, rails, and barrel hood lubed with Slide Glide. The first few shots with the gun, it barely cycled. I forgot to "set it up" for cold weather. (Several years ago I had the same problem. Brian told me that I needed to "cut" the sllide glide with synthetic motor oil in cold weather). So, I cut mine with Mobile 1 zero weight synthetic. Night and day difference. It ran like a top afterwards. For this reason, I do not use Rem Oil or anything like that on my shotguns when I hunt because they will thicken in cold weather (many gun oils will). So, I would look at the lube as a possible culprit. In really cold weather (like Saturday) I will only use the Mobile 1 - I just forgot to put it on my backup.

Now, I would also like to "second" the idea of switching to Clays for .40 minor. I ended up switching John to that in May. 3.0 grns with a 180 is a sweet load. Much softer than Titegroup at the same PF.

Hope this helps.

[JFD]

I don't know if she could have caused the problem or not. She's never had any problem, even when shooting weak hand. Of course she's never shot in fairly cold weather before either. She only shot 1 "C" on that first problem stage, so I thought her grip must have been solid (she sprays bullets all over the place when her grip goes). I can only make guesses about it being shooter related. The only "fact" I know is none of her shots sounded wierd. Not very scientific though...

I had the gun lubed with a very light application of Slide Glide Lite, and toweled that off and replaced it with oil after the 1st stage where she had 4 instances of FTE.

The next 3 stages had the FTE occur once per stage. 2 of those 3 stages had her ignore me when I told her to put the mags in her back pocket. Found she was sticking them in her jacket pocket which did no good. I shoved 4 Hot Hands in her jacket pockets maybe 5 minutes before she shot the final stage where she had problems. After that I started wrapping the mags in Hot Hands, but by that time the day had warmed up.

I didn't notice a thing wrong with my major Titegroup loads, and I was shooting Alphas on the classic targets all day long. I would have felt it if they were weak. Of course I realize it can act differently when used in minor loads.

My only thought on the lube is that the Glock has enough slop that I wouldn't have thought SG Lite would have been a problem. My .38 Super couldn't handle any type of grease when it was cold while shooting minor, but it is a lot tighter gun than any G35. Cleaning both guns and lubing them with SG Lite instead of regular SG was about all the prep work I did before the match. It's been years since I had problems with the .38 Super, and I just didn't think about ammo being an issue at all. If I had, I'd have bumped the powder charge on enough ammo for the match. I also had enough major PF ammo around to shoot the match. She's not thrilled about major ammo, but no doubt she'd prefer the gun to run.

I think I'll switch her over to Clays, which I had wanted to do a few months ago just to have a use for it. I'll load up some ammo to 145 - 150 PF in case we run into cold weather again. At the first chance I'll hit the range with the chrono at our next cold snap.

Thanks again for the help and ideas. It hasn't been easy to get my wife out shooting with me, but now she's hooked (only took 20 years). It heart breaking to see her having problems because of my lack of proper preparation.

Time to order some more bullets.

Thanks for the birthday reminder/thought Jack. Made me remember I had to renew my drivers license today. Took 10 minutes. I'm in shock.

[Sudden Death]

I have only one question about the loaded rounds although I use and never had a problem with Tightgroup. Were the rounds left in the cold over night like say in your car, If so I have heard of a problem just like this from a guy I shoot with we still have not figured it out yet good luck and keep us posted.

[dfwmiket]

At the risk of beating a dead horse here, I'll say "yes" it is temperature sensitive. My usual load chrono is 169-170 in 'normal' temps. When the temp was 29 degrees, at an officially chrono'd match, my PF was 164.97..... I went out when the temp went up and rechrono, I was back to being fine.

Temp will affect it, yes..... I'd guess that batch lots, gun and barrel type, bullet, etc. would all factor into the "exactly how MUCH" it affects it. YMMV.

-Mike

[gm iprod]

I have loaded TG in the following conditions within a very short period of time.

New Zealand's Autumn (May) where I live gets all the way down to maybe 50degrees F. I power factor at 137-140 for Action Pistol. 115gr JHP and 4.8gr.

Same Load two weeks later Missouri anything between 80F and 100F I get 136-140pf. Same bullet, same primer, older cases and same powder. OBviously a different batch of PRimer , Powder and Projectile, But i have had the same experience from 2003 until this year.

I went to Australia with ammo loaded in New Zealand that power factored as above (also about 55F) and in Australia (about 80 - 100F) the results were the same as in the US. If the temperature drops below 40F there is a slight drop (maybe 2 or 3 pf) nut never a huge change that causes you to go under if you work your PF out properly. Just don't cut ot too close.

[JFD]

The rounds weren't left in the car overnight.

I chronoed the load a few days ago and it was running a big 127 PF on a 55 degree day. Just a piss weak load. The new load clocks in at 138 PF and still feels OK, but her 143 PF 180 grain load feels softer. I just loaded the last 2K of the 165 grain bullets and will likely return to 180s now.