Gumby Posted December 5, 2006 Share Posted December 5, 2006 I'm curious if there is much discrepancy regarding the straight thumbs technique among top shooters, such as Brian Enos, Todd Jarrett, Ron Avery, etc. Does anyone know if their technique is exactly the same? Or if there is much variation in the technique? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted December 5, 2006 Share Posted December 5, 2006 More similarity than differentiation, in the big picture of things. However, while basically every top modern shooter uses the favored "thumbs forward" technique, every one of them has minor differences in terms of exact hand placement, wrist rotations, grip pressure, etc, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 5, 2006 Share Posted December 5, 2006 +1 The difference are pretty minor. Much more in common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gumby Posted December 5, 2006 Author Share Posted December 5, 2006 Thanks for the info. I'll have to keep that in mind as I work on my grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted December 5, 2006 Share Posted December 5, 2006 You will see a very common theme in grip with minor variations usually for hand size, gun type etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterbenedetto Posted December 6, 2006 Share Posted December 6, 2006 For the most part, all top GM practices a lot of dryfiring and they practice the most basic shooting technique. we all already know what they are. JUST HAVE TO BE DEDICATED AND DO IT DAILY!!! the moment you dont practice, is the day they gain over you... I think that is the difference..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gumby Posted December 6, 2006 Author Share Posted December 6, 2006 I've been dry firing every day since I got my *XD9 sub-compact (last saturday). And before that I was practicing almost everyday for a couple weeks using a remote control as a prop to learn about body positioning and to strengthen my back for the isosceles. Ammo is expensive and I can't make it out to the range very often so dry firing will have to be my foundation. I think I'm close to getting the straight thumbs grip, but I will have to see how the gun recoils with live fire. In the meantime, I'm trying to learn what I can by reading and practicing. *If I had seen that Todd Jarrett video sooner I probably would have got a 1911 like his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted December 6, 2006 Share Posted December 6, 2006 The XD-9 sub-compact is going to be a challenge, but I'm sure it can work (I've shot the compact, but not the sub-compact). Is this a carry gun, too?? If not, you might look at some grip tape (you could carry it that way, too, but it might cause issues w/ clothes or concealability). I made it to A class doing almost nothing but dryfire practice, and I still use it as a mainstay in my work (working on my GM card now). There's nothing wrong at all with this approach (in fact, from the standpoint of learning technique, its better than pure livefire, as there are fewer distractions - recoil, flinch, noise, etc). Learn what you can w/ the XD-9, and eventually you might determine you need something else - but in the meantime, you can learn all the basic techniques, etc. Its far more the "Indian" than the "Arrow" - in other words, a good shooter will shoot anything well, and vice versa... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gumby Posted December 7, 2006 Author Share Posted December 7, 2006 I wanted a gun that I could carry concealed and also practice basic shooting with. Then I saw the Todd Jarrett video and now I want to be able to shoot like him (or even a fraction of what he can do). So my interest has expanded from what it initially was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 Only difference these days seems to be whether the weak hand index finger wraps around the front of the triggergaurd or not. Top dogs are divided on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 I wanted a gun that I could carry concealed and also practice basic shooting with. Then I saw the Todd Jarrett video and now I want to be able to shoot like him (or even a fraction of what he can do). So my interest has expanded from what it initially was. In my best Lawrence Fishburne voice... Do you think the way Todd Jarrett shoots has anything to do with his equipment?? A 1911 has certain things about it that make it a little bit easier to shoot - but, in practice, its not a huge advantage. Realize that a Glock won the Limited Nationals (against Todd and his Para) this year. If you want to shoot like Todd Jarrett (and, hey, that ain't a bad goal!), its practice, practice, practice... In fact, you'll probably learn more about trigger control by shooting the XD initially, and that will benefit you in the future.... Of course, if you have the cash, and you want a new rig... go for it Only difference these days seems to be whether the weak hand index finger wraps around the front of the triggergaurd or not. Top dogs are divided on that one. And there's only really a couple of guys still doing that, relatively speaking (one of them happens to be the World Champion, of course....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 Get some of the World Shoot/Nationals DVD's. Actually kind of boring in a way since they all look very similar and just run within .10-1.0 sec of each other. I love one of Robbies quotes. Shooter says I going to beat you one day Robbie. He say great, Just shoot a million rounds and you will catch up. Problem is I already have a million downrange and I am still shooting. Paraphrased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 Get some of the World Shoot/Nationals DVD's. Actually kind of boring in a way since they all look very similar and just run within .10-1.0 sec of each other. I love one of Robbies quotes. Shooter says I going to beat you one day Robbie. He say great, Just shoot a million rounds and you will catch up. Problem is I already have a million downrange and I am still shooting. Paraphrased. I remember the quote in question, but I thought he was talking about someone surpassing him in the sport and he said that was fine but that they better get to work cause he was already a million draws ahead of them....but I could be wrong also... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 Get some of the World Shoot/Nationals DVD's. Actually kind of boring in a way since they all look very similar and just run within .10-1.0 sec of each other. I love one of Robbies quotes. Shooter says I going to beat you one day Robbie. He say great, Just shoot a million rounds and you will catch up. Problem is I already have a million downrange and I am still shooting. Paraphrased. I remember the quote in question, but I thought he was talking about someone surpassing him in the sport and he said that was fine but that they better get to work cause he was already a million draws ahead of them....but I could be wrong also... Ya know it might have been draws, time fuzzies it that's why I paraphrased, but ya get the idea. I think this was back in what 1992 or so? TGO probably has another million draws or shots since then. Probably both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 Only difference these days seems to be whether the weak hand index finger wraps around the front of the triggergaurd or not. Top dogs are divided on that one. And there's only really a couple of guys still doing that, relatively speaking (one of them happens to be the World Champion, of course....) You mean World Champion Adam Tyc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 You mean World Champion Adam Tyc? Actually, I was thinking of that French guy... I've never seen pics of Adam shooting, or seen him shoot in person, so I have no idea what kind of grip he uses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpthole Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 I'm a lowly C class... but I'm going to ask anyway... Isn't there some differences of opinion on the "trigger press" vs the "trigger slap"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 mpthole, you're right. The original question was centered around grip, so I think we've been answering that issue, mainly. Its true - some guys (notably, TGO and TJ) "slap" the trigger, and some guys (maybe most guys) press/pull the trigger. The thing is - the "slap" is not a violent yanking on the trigger as the word seems to imply. What it basically means is that the trigger finger comes off the trigger completely, and then straight back onto it with the appropriate amount of force to actuate it. Its seemingly a harder technique to learn and not affect accuracy, but it seems to help with unintentionally pinning the trigger (usually caused by tension...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gumby Posted December 9, 2006 Author Share Posted December 9, 2006 (edited) In my best Lawrence Fishburne voice... Do you think the way Todd Jarrett shoots has anything to do with his equipment?? No, it's just that I thought the sub-compact might be inadequate if I actually wanted to compete one day. So this might be an ok gun for this? However, I would like to get a 1911 one day too. And maybe a revolver. But that's it. Edited December 9, 2006 by Gumby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 Not many people wrap their finger around the trigger guard, Graufell is different he also does a "push pull" thing with the gun from what i have heard. as for slapping those who do slap usually have insanly light triggers too. Technique is pretty close, depending on their strengths and weaknesses and just how they are comfortable, some shooters approach things very differently, yet get the same result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzly Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 (edited) Gee, I wish I could remember the link. I saw some photos of TGO at full speed, and it looked like his finger was coming off the trigger and hitting the front of the trigger guard before coming back. Maybe it was on his site. Of course he was rockin' and rollin' on some close targets with one of his 1911s, which are set up at a reliable 1.5 lb trigger pull (I think the trigger pulls are on his site too, even if I'm having a brain phart, check out his site anyway). Anyway, back to my point. Do some of the guys shoot like that all the time? My understanding was that the "slap" was for close up targets, and they slow down a little and "press" on the more difficult shots. Just wanted to add, the thing that helped me most with my grip was getting my left hand involved and up nice and high on the gun. Then the thumbs and stuff made a lot more sense. Edited December 9, 2006 by Fuzly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 Anyway, back to my point. Do some of the guys shoot like that all the time? My understanding was that the "slap" was for close up targets, and they slow down a little and "press" on the more difficult shots. Simply stated, you do what you need to to hit the target. Properly conditioned your subconsious will make the decision on how to pull the trigger based on difficulty of the shot. A Rob Leatham quote. "People do need to know how to hold the gun and know how the stance works, but what keeps me busy in my classes is trying to help my students learn how to think. They say, "Rob holds his hands like this....," and they don't know that the reason I hold my hands like this is NOT to make myself look that way; holding the gun that way is the end result of doing something else. I think of it like this: I could build a machine that could shoot better than I could untuil something went wrong with it. And the rest of the day it would miss because it's not going to adjust for anything. That is the only place where we as biological units are superior to things we can build. We can adapt and improve and modify and change. And the changes aren't going to come on the outside, they're going to come on the inside." I read that somewhere.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gumby Posted December 13, 2006 Author Share Posted December 13, 2006 Beautiful quote. I just got Brian's book and I really like all the philosophy behind the art. A year ago I had no idea that handgunners had so much in common with martial artists. I'm beginning to see that they are martial artists, just not of the empty-handed sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 There are little tricks those guys pass around. When I got to 93% in LTD back in about 2000, I couldn't earn 2% more to save my life. I got an email response from JoJo Vidanes about using both eyes. He stated to shoot my open gun with the front of the C-More lense covered so I could see the dot but not the target through the lense. My left eye would have to see the target leaving my right eye to see the dot. They will superimpose. I shot stages and plates with this trick and my left eye found a mind of it's own. When I went back to LTD I jumped to 98%+ and made the top 20 list. It was amazing how my shooting improved from this trick (and a bunch of shooting). Hand position is a personal thing. I still shoot with my thumbs overlapped from revolver shooting and will admit the other method is better but I'm not about to change after all these years. Use what you can from the better shooters but remember they have physical motor skills that may be better too. One local GM shooter is believed to see at "30-32 frames per second" where most people can't come close. He's just special. I don't think I could ever shoot a Para half a good as Todd or a single stack like Robbie. My buddy is a B shooter for life. That's his limit... Mick A27257 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Use what you can from the better shooters but remember they have physical motor skills that may be better too. One local GM shooter is believed to see at "30-32 frames per second" where most people can't come close. He's just special.Mick A27257 Thats one thing thats always bothered me, the whole 'frames per second' thing. I guess the idea came from the fact that movies are presented at a certain 'frame per second' in order to fool the eye into believing that it's actually a steady flow of movement. But our eyes do not see in 'frames per second' If your eyes are open you are seeing in real time, constantly. Central and peripheral vision is always there, you just have to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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