Handicapped Shooters?

[GlockShooter]

Ok, everyone I know I'm fairly new to this forum so, if this is in the wrong spot please move it where it should be. Anyway, my question for those wiser than I is: I have a friend at college who is very interested in shooting IDPA and USPSA, however, due to a very tragic car accident he is confined to a wheel-chair. Now, he is not paralyzed, he simply can't walk. So, is there any reason that he would be unable to shoot either of these sports? I mean, what do the rules say about things of this nature? Are there any provisions in these two shooting disciplines for handicapped shooters? Please, any feedback will be most helpful and appreciated! Thanks again!

[Viggen]

There are many types of shooting/pistol competition.

Something that may be a good fit for your friend would be Bullseye or NRA type 3-gun. I am not sure what it is formally called although I have friends who are active in the sport.

[uscbigdawg]

There was a guy featured a couple of years ago who shot the Bianchi Cup from a wheel chair. Unfortunately, USPSA or IDPA wouldn't be the best place for him.

Rich

[Alan Meek]

Years ago out in CA we had a shooter in a wheelchair shoot the Level 1 club match in Apple Valley CA, his holster was attached to the wheel chair and he had a buddy that would push him through the stage.

If you can accomodate him safely there is no reason why he can not come out and participate.

Alan

[chuckbradley]

I have to disagree. USPSA is great for him. We have provisions for the handicapped. Back in the 90's I shot the Golden Gate match with Tom. I am sorry to say i dont remember his last name. He had his holster & magpouches mounted on the sides of his chair. It was cool. We all wanted to try it out. His chair was motorized. There was a stage where we had to climb stairs, go through a door and down the stairs on the other side. Tom just went around it. the MD was very helpful in determining what he could and couldnt do and the appropriate scoring. He wasnt going to win the match but he was a fierce competitor, great shot and had a good time.

I know there are people from the NW here that know Tom. I wonder how he is doing and if he still shoots sometimes. I would be glad to hear from them.

[IronEqualizer]

I like the idea of someone pushing him through the course....another good option is any steel challenge matches.

[ChuckS]

The USPSA rules are silent on handicap but there is a rule that would apply

10.2.11 Special penalty: A competitor unable to fully execute any part of

a course of fire due to incapacity or injury may, prior to making

his attempt at the course of fire, request that the Range Master

apply a penalty in lieu of the stated course requirement.

10.2.11.1 If the request is approved by the Range Master, a minimum

of one procedural penalty, up to a maximum penalty of 20%

of the competitor’s points “as shot” (rounded up to the

nearest whole number), will be deducted from the competitor’s

score. For example, if 100 points are available in the

course of fire and the competitor actually scores 90 points,

the special penalty is a deduction of 18 points.

I guess if they could safely navigate the course they would be good to go. I am sure that there would be many instances that would be difficult, if not impossible to deal with.

With a chair the guy would probably wind up reholstering some and there is also a rule about it!

8.2.5 A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a

handgun during a course of fire. However, a competitor may reholster

provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is

either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1.

So, in short, I guess he would be allowed to compete but may have to take the penalties if he could not complete the stage. Bring him out to a match and let him decide!

Dunno about IDPA.

Later,

Chuck

[BritinUSA]

I would like to see the word 'minimum' removed from that rule. This way the MD can decide in the best interest of the sport not to assign an procedurals to the competitor. If shooting in a wheelchair there is no way he's going to get the best time on a field stage so why penalise further.

I think total MD discretion would be better for this rule. Just my 2 cents.

[Kyreb]

You know, having played these gun games for 20+ years two events stand out that really inspired me.

The first was back in Ohio at a local IDPA match where I was SO. A guy in his 60s shot the whole match hobbling around on two canes. His knees were obviously arthritic to the point of not functioning. He shot the whole match with some old .38 revolver and a Uncle Mike's rig. Not quick and obviously in pain with every step...but he was grinning from ear to ear the whole time.

The second was the Space City Challenge last year. A guy from LA came up the the stage I was ROing who had one arm that was affected by a birth defect. In essence that arm and hand were of no use to him. He had a plate on his belt so he could manipulate reloads and shot the whole match "strong hand". He was damn good too.

Both of these guys were in my opinion, flat amazing. I think about them now when I get flustered with my "almost 50 eyes" or tendonitis flares up in my elbow on match day and I want to bitch about it.

As far as I am concerned, as long as we can safely accomodate anyone with any supposed handicap they are more than welcome on any stage I am working. I can run a timer and push a wheelchair if necessary. Our sport is a lot bigger than scores and equipment races.

Rick

[abs]

You know, having played these gun games for 20+ years two events stand out that really inspired me.

The first was back in Ohio at a local IDPA match where I was SO. A guy in his 60s shot the whole match hobbling around on two canes. His knees were obviously arthritic to the point of not functioning. He shot the whole match with some old .38 revolver and a Uncle Mike's rig. Not quick and obviously in pain with every step...but he was grinning from ear to ear the whole time.

The second was the Space City Challenge last year. A guy from LA came up the the stage I was ROing who had one arm that was affected by a birth defect. In essence that arm and hand were of no use to him. He had a plate on his belt so he could manipulate reloads and shot the whole match "strong hand". He was damn good too.

Both of these guys were in my opinion, flat amazing. I think about them now when I get flustered with my "almost 50 eyes" or tendonitis flares up in my elbow on match day and I want to bitch about it.

handicap they are more than welcome on any stage I am working. I can run a timer and push a wheelchair if necessary. Our sport is a lot bigger than scores and equipment rac

As far as I am concerned, as long as we can safely accomodate anyone with any supposedes.

Rick

[KentG]

I was at a state IDPA match a few years ago and a fellow in a wheelchair shot it, I wasnt in his squad. At the shooters meeting the MD explained his time would be only from shot to shot and any time "moving" would not be counted while he either pushed himself or had help moving. Being IDPA it didnt seem like a big deal because of the way IDPA mandates shooting from cover and all. I figured he had enough problems just shooting from the level of the chair and however else it impared his shooting.

IF I recall correctly he ended up being very high on the final scores.

[mminmm]

The USPSA rules are silent on handicap but there is a rule that would apply

I recently did a rules refresher course with Vince Pinto and he spoke about the 2006 IPSC rulebook which has two new rules to deal with people in wheelchairs. The first one is --

8.6.1.1 Competitors confined to wheelchairs or similar devices may be given

special dispensation by the Range Master in respect of mobility assistance,

however, the provisions of Rule 10.2.11 may still apply, at the Range Master's

discretion.

but I can't find the other one right now.

I just found the other one --

5.2.8.1 Competitors deemed by the Range Master to be permanently and significantly

disabled may be given special dispensation in relation to the type and/or placement of

their holster and related equipment, and the Range Master will remain the final authority

in respect of the safety and suitability of using such equipment at IPSC matches.

Edited December 2, 2006 by mminmm

[George]

Nothing in the USPSA rules say he can't and banishing him to Bullseye is not right. USPSA has had handicapped shooters compete before and they will again. They just accept penalties for things they can't perform as required. A handicapped shooter isn't in the running for match winner so a few extra penalties are no big deal, just shooting the match is the thing here.

No self respecting MD wouldn't go out of his/her way to make it work out for someone with a handicap that wants to participate.

I say go for it, your buddy will be eternally grateful if you help him to enjoy this great sport of ours.

[dshooter3]

Glockshooter, I have a good friend that is in a wheel chair and shoots IPSC. You will find that every match he goes to people will bend over backwards to allow him to shoot. When Dave shoots at our match we have to make a few consecutions for him. He can’t shoot through all of the ports, so he shot beside them, no problem. Some times he will have a pusher on a long field courses but most of the time he just reholsters and moves himself. Dave’s holster and magazine pouches are mounted to his chair. I will try to post some video of him shooting some stages. I will pm you with his contact numbers

[dshooter3]

Here's a link to my friend Dave who is disabled, shooting an IPSC match in NM.

[Tom Mainus]

Was that an 8-shot revolver he was shooting? A true wheel man in all aspects

Tom

[get2now]

I have to disagree. USPSA is great for him. We have provisions for the handicapped. Back in the 90's I shot the Golden Gate match with Tom. I am sorry to say i dont remember his last name. He had his holster & magpouches mounted on the sides of his chair. It was cool. We all wanted to try it out. His chair was motorized. There was a stage where we had to climb stairs, go through a door and down the stairs on the other side. Tom just went around it. the MD was very helpful in determining what he could and couldnt do and the appropriate scoring. He wasnt going to win the match but he was a fierce competitor, great shot and had a good time.

I know there are people from the NW here that know Tom. I wonder how he is doing and if he still shoots sometimes. I would be glad to hear from them.

His name was Tom Watson. His wife Diana also shot with him. He was a great inspiration to us all. That wheelchair was the coolest!!! He could make the wheels spin, it had that much power.

A few years ago I heard his health took a turn for the worse. I don't know if he's still around or not. I hope so.

Almost three years ago I was shooting while using crutches.

Like Chuck says, USPSA is a great place for him.

G

[BSeevers]

I used to shoot with a guy that had his holster/mag pouch on a wheelchair and another guy with only one arm.

He can shoot any match that I run if he is safe.

[acolt45]

A great incentive – it would be nice to see more coming out.

We all have our own problems when getting older and it’s nice to get out and shoot with someone and talk about what things use to be like.

It about the comradely and doing something we all enjoy, no matter how we do it.

Back in the ol days I could……

[Merlin Orr]

I shot a couple of IDPA matches in/around Orange TX last year and a guy shot out of a motorized wheelchair. He wore a vest and drew and reloaded from his belt. He did not ask for or receive any "special" considerations other than the obvious....(no kneeling type stuff & etc) He wheeled his chair around pretty handily too...

As a side thought... most of the (so called) handicapped guys I have been around would likely kick your ass if you tried to give them much in the way of special considerations...

[Jaxshooter]

Having come from a skeet, trap and sporting clays there are special classes for wheelchair shooters. They can also compete against all of the other shooters as well. In our sport it would be possible to accomodate chair shooters. If they can handle the gun safely let them shoot.

[Overkill]

Every USPSA MD I've ever seen will do whatever it takes to make sure a physically limited shooter gets as fair a shake as possible; moving changing props, changing procedures, stopping time, assistance, crediting for targets which cant be engaged...its all on the table if necessary to make it fair and fun. I dont know exactly how that squares with the rules, and you might not get the extreme level of accommodation at a big match, but if ever there was a good reason for the MD to hoist the Jolly Rodger, and for the Range Lawyers to STFU, this would be it.

[bayoupirate]

The second was the Space City Challenge last year. A guy from LA came up the the stage I was ROing who had one arm that was affected by a birth defect. In essence that arm and hand were of no use to him. He had a plate on his belt so he could manipulate reloads and shot the whole match "strong hand". He was damn good too.

Rick

This Guy is Joe Touchton. Originall from TX, now living in LA. Joe is my neighboor. When I started at this game 3 years ago, Joe served as an excellent mentor to me. He taught me everything from reloading to gaming a stages, and is still trying to get me to slow and actually make the hits. He's a true gentleman and friend. With two good arms and at least 20 years of youth on Joe, It's taken me 3 years to get up to his level, and I'm not sure I'm there yet.

Joe not only shoots, He runs one of our local shooting clubs here that host Steel Plate & ICORE Matches.

[ken hebert]

I shot a couple of IDPA matches in/around Orange TX last year and a guy shot out of a motorized wheelchair. He wore a vest and drew and reloaded from his belt. He did not ask for or receive any "special" considerations other than the obvious....(no kneeling type stuff & etc) He wheeled his chair around pretty handily too...

As a side thought... most of the (so called) handicapped guys I have been around would likely kick your ass if you tried to give them much in the way of special considerations...

I'm the match director for this paricular competitor. Super nice guy, shows up early to help set up, stays to help tear down. Absolute brass nazi!! Kinda my semi-official scorekeeper. Anyway, during set-up, I usually keep him within earshot and have him do a "drive by" if I'm setting up something I think he might have a problem with. Usually what it ammounts to is a wall being so that he can't shoot over/thru/around it, so the simple solution is almost always to just take it down when it's his turn to shoot. For this reason, he almost always puts his scorecard at the bottom of the stack and moving the wall affects no-one else. It's so commonplace now that none of us really think about it, it's just part of our matches.

BTW, I've never assessed him any procedural penalties for not being able to shoot a stage the way the other more mobile shooters do.

Edited June 7, 2007 by ken hebert

[JThompson]

I would like to see the word 'minimum' removed from that rule. This way the MD can decide in the best interest of the sport not to assign an procedurals to the competitor. If shooting in a wheelchair there is no way he's going to get the best time on a field stage so why penalise further.

I think total MD discretion would be better for this rule. Just my 2 cents.

+1