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How Often Do You Call Your Shots?


Sharyn

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It's interesting to me to see how many highly skilled shooters define "calling the shot" by referencing the front sight. For certain, this is the predominate and safest method of shot calling. And I do not wish to confuse the issue for anyone. (Although sorting out confusion seems to be part of my learning process)

But, it begs the question, at least in my mind, "Is looking at the front sight the only way to know where the bullet went?" I don't ask the question to challenge anyone else's experience or opinion. On tight shots or plates, definately, I'm all about being steadfastly on the front sight.

However, long ago, I noticed that I tend to "call the slide" on close targets. It's like the question of hard or soft sight focus. With equal amouts of brown on both sides of the slide representing the softest of the soft foci.

Attention is everywhere. The front sight is only one place on the continuum.

Is this heresy? ;)

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Pickles, the reason your math is off is you're only looking at the hit factor for one target. You have to look at your hit factor for the whole stage. Shooting minor on a 10 factor stage you have .40 seconds to make up a Delta and 1.5 to make up a mike and keep the same HF you would have had, if you make them up any quicker you're going to have a better hit factor. On a 5 factor stage you've got .40 to make up a Charlie. In your examples, just factoring one target, your HF's are very high. If there were an actual stage with 20 plus HF, then your math would be correct.

Firstly, I've been talking about Charlies and not Deltas or Mikes.

4 targets at 40 yards, this is the entire course of fire.

If you fire the course of fire in 5 seconds flat, with 7 A's and one C your hit factor is 7.6. Can you reengage to make up the last Alpha in .26 seconds?

If you fire the course of fire in 4 seconds flat, with 7 A's and one C your hit factor is 9.5. Can you reengage to make up the last Alpha in .21 seconds?

If you fire the course of fire in 3 seconds flat, with 7 A's and one C your hit factor is 12.6. Can you reengage to make up the last Alpha in .16 seconds?

3 examples, same course of fire. The better the shooter (highest HF) has less time to make up that Charlie than the slower shooter. In real life, I'm not convinced the shooter will benefit from attempting to reengage a target to make up a Charlie. The distance is fairly far and the shot becomes a gamble for a lower score.

Obviously the lower the hit factor the more important each target becomes.

2 arrays of 2 targets at 7 yards. The stage design is such that you must move 10 yards before the 2nd array is visible. This is the entire course of fire.

You fire the course in 7 seconds with 7 A's and 1 C for a HF of 5.43. Can you reengage to make up the last Alpha in .37 seconds?

You fire the course in 6 seconds with 7 A's and 1 C for a HF of 6.33. Can you reengage to make up the last Alpha in .32 seconds?

You fire the course in 5 seconds with 7 A's and 1 C for a HF of 7.60. Can you reengage to make up the last Alpha in .26 seconds?

3 examples, same course of fire. In this example I think the make up shot is worth the time, as a .26 second shot at 7 yards is easy enough for most USPSA shooters.

In the end, it seems that low hit factor stages (0-9 HF) are worth reengaging as long as the shots aren't difficult. On medium HF stages (9-18 HF) the only reengaging that pays off is very easy targets. On high HF stages (18+) you can't reengage quickly enough even on very easy targets to raise your score.

A 3 HF stage means you have .66 seconds to make up 2 points

A 6 HF stage means you have .33 seconds to make up 2 points

A 9 HF stage means you have .22 seconds to make up 2 points

A 12 HF stage means you have .16 seconds to make up 2 points

A 15 HF stage means you have .13 seconds to make up 2 points

A 18 HF stage means you have .11 seconds to make up 2 points

A 21 HF stage means you have .09 seconds to make up 2 points

Shoot all A's and you don't have to make up any shots. I hope this isn't too much topic creep, after all I'm talking about what to do about the information you gain from calling shots.

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Ok. I missed the fact you were only talking about C's. I don't shoot production so I'll let a prod. shooter comment, but I don't think I'd worry too much about making up C's. I think it's safe to say calling a C and making it up with an A in less than half a second at 40 yards is not realistic.

My only difference of opinion from your last post is I don't consider a 9 factor a low HF. I consider 5 or below low factors, 6 or 7 neutral, and 8+ to be high HF's. I've seen a few up to 13 or maybe 15 and I don't think I've ever shot a stage that factored over 18.....would be a fun hose fest though.

Edited by SmittyFL
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Pickles,

it still comes down to your hit factor --- not the stage high hit factor. If it's a ten factor stage, the winner has .20 to make up a C; however if you can only shoot a 4 hit factor, you've got half a second to convert a C into an A. That's a lot of time --- if you can nail a split of .2 or even .35, you're ahead of the game.

If you're regularly shooting 9 hit factors on Production stages, you must be winning matches. I don't usually see stages where the best production shooters are hitting hit factors much higher than 9 or 10; more typical is an 8 or so.

That said, I don't always make up Charlies ---- I try hard to plant my sights in the A zone, and typically only take the third shot if I noticed something way off in my sight picture, or if I realize that I never saw the sights at all. In both those situations there's a good possibility that I've shot a Delta or a Mike --- so I make the shot up. As my skills improve, I get better and better at knowing whether my shot's in need of help, or whether it was good enough to achieve the intended result......

BTW --- that 40 yard stage, we shot something similar at the Nationals. 4 Poppers in front of no-shoots, 2 paper in between. The stage was won in Production by Angus --- 5.29 down 4. Next fastest time was 6.06 also down 4. I'm pretty sure no one fired makeup shots at that distance.....

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Well, local match today. I had a miss on the classifier, didn't call it or make it up.

On another stage, 15yd target on the move, I shot a Delta that I called a Mike and made it up with an Alpha that I called a Charlie.......so I'm not sure where that leaves me. :P

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Well, local match today. I had a miss on the classifier, didn't call it or make it up.

On another stage, 15yd target on the move, I shot a Delta that I called a Mike and made it up with an Alpha that I called a Charlie.......so I'm not sure where that leaves me. :P

Seeing as how the VP is such a VIP, shouldn't we keep the PC on the QT? 'Cause if it leaks to the VC he could end up MIA, and then we'd all be put out in KP.

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As was stated above, calling your shots does NOT mean you never miss, it just means you know where the miss went. I have called misses in major matches that I didn't make up. And you can usually tell because I will go immediately to that target at the end to check. I knew it was gone, but never hurts to check, I could be wrong. :D

Also, you can call the shot, but if your sights are not spot on it's still a miss. At Area 2 a couple of years ago I had this happen. On the first two stages I had a no shoot low that I called as a hit...but sure enough it was on the n/s. I adjusted the sights before the next stage and didn't have a miss or a n/s after that. The lesson is to always, always sight your gun in after flying to a match. Btw, I still didn't use the sight in range, I adjusted to how I had called the shots on the stage and the gun was right on the money the rest of the match.

Calling your shots is like singing. Everyone has a voice that they can sing with. Some can sing better than others. Sometimes even if you don't have a great voice you can still train it, it may not be beautifull but you will be singing on "key".

Calling your shots is being aware as to where your gun is shooting/pointing at the moment you squeeze your trigger, and knowing what the outcome will be. In this you are assisted by the sights position along with your time delay reaction and body "english" in combination from cumulative experience. Yes, even though you are calling your shots, it is automatic and not entirely "robotic" in its execution. Your satisfaction with your acquired "spot of impact" at the moment of call will determine whether it was/will be a mike or an alpha.

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Jake is correct in his definition but I think for our game most of us could agree a lesser degree of precision would suffice as a definition. (at least it does for me) I think I call most of my shots but I usually can't call them within a couple of inches. I call them Good, Delta, Mike, or I don't know. The last two always require make ups and Delta sometimes does.

+1 - except that I'm striving to call Cs, as well. :) Right now, its the focus to always know when I don't know that's getting me...

I shot stage 11 at the Nats and had wind "fog up" my contacts (never had that happen before in the middle of a stage...) as I indexed to the 2nd paper target from the left. It distracted me visually, and I let the shot off, but didn't really know where the shot went. The stage was short enough that the question marks never had time to surface in my mind about it. Turns out, I either didn't index far enough, or yanked the snot out of it, and put the shot in the C zone of the no-shoot - NS/mike. D'oh. Didn't know, and didn't realize that I didn't know until I reviewed later....

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Getting back to the original questions on the threads

"Where is your focus when it's not on calling your shots?"

For me I think it would be the stage plan. What I've got to do next is usually what pulls me "out of the now" of calling my shots for some period of time in the stage.

This is another area that I am working on. Getting more and more things into the automatic mode so that focus can be elsewhere like trigger control and calling the shot (which I think go hand in hand).

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Would it be correct to say HF stands for Hose Factor :lol: Too much math for me! Some stages just beg to be shot fast and well. CF (comfort factor) different for everyone....mine are the stages that just seem to layout well in my mind. I try to get in the lane I can turn on the cruise control set to 80...when it's right 110 (percent that is). Calling the shots when they show up where I'm looking ;)

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Seeing as how the VP is such a VIP, shouldn't we keep the PC on the QT? 'Cause if it leaks to the VC he could end up MIA, and then we'd all be put out in KP.

Robin Williams, Good Morning Vietnam.... I "called" that one correct, didn't I? :D

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For me the hardest thing about "Calling the shot" is just keeping my eyes open... Unfortunatly, that is also the easiest thing involved in the process... :(

I think the first step for beginers is to just keep their eyes open, ie what did the sights look like when they lifted. The second step is knowing how far off the sights can be for an Alpha hit at various distances. That to me is the "hard" part of calling the shot.

I would like to think that I "call" my shots but I don't think I really do at all. I think what I do is have a feel for a shot and make up shots based on that "feel". I think the result of 3 Alphas on a target is simply the result of someone not calling their shot but they "called" that they don't know where it went. After the fact they see that their trigger control and timing were on and they made 3 Alphas. :wacko:

So my answer to the question, as a B shooter, is probably 10-20% of my shots are actually "called", as in I kept my eyes opened, saw the sights lift, AND I knew where the bullet would hit.

Ira

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To say that calling shots is unrealistic for those trying to improve is pretty much wrong.

Sorry, this is still bugging me. :D If you will take the time to read what I posted, and try to understand what I'm saying, I think you'd realize we are saying similar things.

I did NOT say calling shots is unrealistic for those trying to improve... I said

I think calling every shot in IPSC/USPSA competition is unrealistic

Actually you said...

I think calling every shot in IPSC/USPSA competition is unrealistic, especially for those trying to improve.

I don't mean to bicker about it but I guess what bugs me is that the poll seems to geared towards accepting that it's ok to not call every shot. Whereas I think it is important to understand that you MUST strive to call EVERY shot. Not accept that it cannot be done.

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I don't mean to bicker about it but I guess what bugs me is that the poll seems to geared towards accepting that it's ok to not call every shot. Whereas I think it is important to understand that you MUST strive to call EVERY shot. Not accept that it cannot be done.

The poll is not about acceptance.

If you MUST strive to call EVERY shot, don't you think it's important to be honest with yourself and realize where you stand in the first place? And once you've done that, don't you think you should figure out why you're not achieving your goals? Only then can you devise a plan to improve... right?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Not that I'm anybody,,but,,,

Like most others that have commented, whenever I'm not calling my shots (front site focused) it is usually becuase the target is a point blank range and I am target focused. I have done this so often and for so many years (LEO training) that my hands bring the pistol up to where I am concentrating my eyesite. Every time I have concentrated on a SPOT on the target vs having the whole target in my site, I then pull back my visual focus to the sites and by golly the sites are exactly where I am looking. If you look at the target as a whole, then chances are you may not have the best groupings.

If you are not giong to be front site focused 100% of the time, then the next best thing is to pick a spot on the target and concentrate on that spot when the shot breaks.

Again, these are up close targets, not distance shots.

With as fast as some of the splits are from some of the Super de dooper guys, I have a VERY tough time thinking they are front site focused and calling their shots.

Edited for spelling....

Edited by TRP-Professional
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Like most others that have commented, whenever I'm not calling my shots (front site focused) it is usually becuase the target is a point blank range and I am target focused.

Consider:

On the really close targets, you may not need to be on the front sight, but you still need to call the shot. There are many inputs that we get while shooting. The sights give the most detailed feedback...but there is plenty of other stuff to see.

See what you need to see...to call the shot.

Don't let the vision wonder off to do other things.

With as fast as some of the splits are from some of the Super de dooper guys, I have a VERY tough time thinking they are front site focused and calling their shots.

This is one that we can say over and over, but we just can't seem to get the message through. Some need to experience it for themselves. (Which may never happen, because they don't believe that is what the top guys do.)

-------------------

Calling shots leads to more and more speed.

-------------------

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With as fast as some of the splits are from some of the Super de dooper guys, I have a VERY tough time thinking they are front site focused and calling their shots.

This is one that we can say over and over, but we just can't seem to get the message through. Some need to experience it for themselves. (Which may never happen, because they don't believe that is what the top guys do.)

-------------------

Calling shots leads to more and more speed.

-------------------

Yeah, I'm not even a sooper-dooper guy, but I can call shots on 7 yard targets with .13 splits. I can't tell you "the first one is two and a half inches low and right of the scoring line", but I can tell you "They're A's" and be correct.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I stopped shooting USPSA 4 years ago. 2 months ago I started going to the range again.

Real sloppy at first.After 1500 rounds or so things are looking up. I was a mid C class.

I went to shoot a practice stage at a local club and several of the guys said I looked like a C class shooter. And I'm geting the feel again!!! I was able to call about half of my shots.

When I get the chance I'll do some of the drill you folks are talking about and post then for your enjoyment. You can laugh, cry or make snappy comments. If they sound good I will try them out.

Have a 2 in the "A" day!!!

Rob

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