How Often Do You Call Your Shots?

[Sharyn]

As was stated above, calling your shots does NOT mean you never miss, it just means you know where the miss went.

I agree... but isn't that defeating the purpose of calling your shots?

I think my mention of the Super Squadders having misses convoluted my point. I just meant that even at that level they have misses that they don't call (extreme example). I can't imagine anyone on a Super Squad not making up their misses that they called.

[38supPat]

You just need to differentiate between calling the shot, which merely means knowing where the sights were when you fired, not where you wanted the shot to go, or where it ended up, and missing or making up the shot which is based on the judgement of what happened to the shot.

Sometimes a miss needs to be left because the time to pick it up would be more costly than just accepting the 'mike'. Eg. a target engaged as you leave a position that would require you to reenter the position to make up the shot.

It also depends on your programming. What happens on a high speed stage is what you programmed in before shooting. If your programming does not include make up shots, then the conscious decision needed to call the miss, decide to make it up, and reengage the target can take too long.

[Sharyn]

You just need to differentiate between calling the shot, ... and missing or making up the shot which is based on the judgement of what happened to the shot.

No, not really. I was assuming the definition of calling a shot was understood (my bad?). I hear what you're saying, but that's been beaten to death in other threads. Please re-read my posts and try to understand what I was saying (if you're responding directly to me). I can't explain any better. Maybe someone else can help me explain. Or maybe, I'm the only one that understands the voices in my head... that's highly likely.

[38supPat]

I don't think ANYONE in the world calls 100% of their shots with perfect accuracy without fail.

In the world of IPSC/USPSA, I agree completely. Your topic, on not having a miss in a major match as one of your goals, was actually one that inspired this thread. That is an amazingly difficult feat!

I'm surprised there are so many 100%'s in the poll... then again, I'm not. I think a lot of shooters either over-estimate their skills or maybe don't understand shot calling. BTW, I rate myself in the 30-59% range.

I think calling every shot in IPSC/USPSA competition is unrealistic, especially for those trying to improve. GRANTED, calling your shots is accomplished by the cumulative effect of executing the fundamentals ... and that must be learned in order to progress... however, to a certain degree,

Sorry, I don't mean to come of as antagonistic, but some of the posts here lead me to believe shot calling is still misunderstood.

These posts are good examples (and I don't mean to pick on you ) To say that calling shots is unrealistic for those trying to improve is pretty much wrong. I believe it is the first thing you need to understand. In order to improve you MUST understand the importance of calling every shot. USPSA and IPSC are accuracy sports, you can not make it to the top without becoming a very accurate shooter. Unfortunately I think most people find they have to learn this after they get to a certain level and don't know why they are not progressing any further. So the learning process a lot of times in IPSC is, get fast, then learn to hit targets. And this has become the expected normal way of learning. If you knew how to hit targets in the first place, with precision, it then becomes much easier to work on speed.

GRANTED, calling your shots is accomplished by the cumulative effect of executing the fundamentals

Calling your shots IS a fundamental...it is seeing where the sights were at the instant of firing, nothing more, it's an observation...regardless of what else you did. It descibes the action. It doesn't matter what you did to cause the shot to go where it did, only that you saw where it went. You can be standing on one foot, holding a pigeon in one hand pulling the trigger with a piece of string tied to your tongue stud, it doesn't matter as long as you saw where the sights were when the gun went bang.

It does not mean you get an A everytime, it merely means that when you get your D's and C's you know it because thats where the sight told you the gun was pointed at the moment of ignition. Hopefully by learning to call every shot, you can then see what fundamentals need to be worked on as they are what caused the shot to stray from where you intended to hit.

vincent, I'm thinkin' the same thing... and as soon as I shift to conciously calling my shots... times increase dramatically... (i.e. stages 10, 11, and 16).

You can not consciously call a shot, it happens too fast. Anytime you put your mind into the concious realm, you are not seeing what is happening. You can not think about it, you have to see it. Calling shots can not slow you down because it is an act of observing not an action itself.

Calling a shot has nothing to do with where you intended to hit (aiming) or where the bullet actually did hit, only where the sights were when the shot broke, thats the only visual information you have during the act of firing that tells you where the bullet is headed. If your gun is sighted in properly, the bullet did not strike anything on it's way to the target, or the target did not move (wind etc.) then it should be there where the sights told you it would be.

I refuse to believe that you cannot call every shot, you can, it just takes a very strong focus.

If you do not believe you can call every shot...you never will.

[38supPat]

Call every shot.

Whether or not you do anything about the call is a decision made upon the calling of the shot.

be

[Jake Di Vita]

Calling the shot is knowing where the bullet went before it gets there. A, D, Miss, No Shoot, whatever. Doesn't matter......all it is is knowing exactly where it went the instead it left the barrel.

I guarantee that there is no one in the world that knows exactly where every round that leaves their barrel goes. If you are off by an inch...guess what...you didn't call the shot. I'm not saying it is impossible...but it would require a focus on this world that I don't think yet exists.

[shred]

There's a video of a Chinese guy at the olympics a few years back. Shooting a .22 or air pistol at some tiny target. He's got the gold in the bag until the last shot... as soon as he fires it, he collapses right there on the line. He called it, but it didn't go where he wanted it to.

[Sharyn]

ack.

So... what is 'the importance' of calling every shot if you're going to call misses?

You can continue to dissect my verbage, I know I'm not the greatest communicator. There are plenty of topics on the definition of shot calling and each individual's understanding. Try and assume the definition is baseline and let's move on.

So the learning process a lot of times in IPSC is, get fast, then learn to hit targets. And this has become the expected normal way of learning. If you knew how to hit targets in the first place, with precision, it then becomes much easier to work on speed.

That is sort of what I'm looking at in the poll. "I think a lot of shooters either over-estimate their skills or maybe don't understand shot calling." I come from the other 'shoot accurate and the speed will come' school. I guess I have a different perspective than the norm... (?)

"What are you doing when you're not calling your shots?" can probably be re-worded to "Where is your focus when it's not on calling your shots?"

shred, trying to keep it in the realm of IPSC/USPSA matches... in that context, I agree with Jake... in bullseye, I don't. But we're not talking bullseye, right?

Edited November 4, 2006 by Sharyn

[Shawn Knight]

I called some of my misses today during our IDPA match. I am going to call more misses during our IPSC match tomorrow.

[wide45]

But we're not talking bullseye, right?

We could be. Calling the shot is still the same thing.

If you are off by an inch...guess what...you didn't call the shot.

I don't agree with this.

[ihatepickles]

I am enjoying this thread.

I wonder if there are other people like me, who are getting better at calling their shots, but their brains freeze on a bad shot. I think this reduces to not having a plan on whether I should reengage paper when I call a B/C/D hit. Upon reflection, I realize that when my brain goes into vapor lock I'm not scoring points or moving on with the stage. So for me, calling shots is great but for now I'm struggling to use the information effectively.

I shoot Production so I guess I'd like some help with the hit factor math. How can I approach this problem and make the solution work for me? When should I reengage and when is it better to keep moving?

[Sharyn]

I am enjoying this thread.

I wonder if there are other people like me, who are getting better at calling their shots, but their brains freeze on a bad shot. I think this reduces to not having a plan on whether I should reengage paper when I call a B/C/D hit. Upon reflection, I realize that when my brain goes into vapor lock I'm not scoring points or moving on with the stage. So for me, calling shots is great but for now I'm struggling to use the information effectively.

I shoot Production so I guess I'd like some help with the hit factor math. How can I approach this problem and make the solution work for me? When should I reengage and when is it better to keep moving?

I can totally relate to your "brain freeze". In Open division, things are happening so fast that many times I don't "respond" to a bad shot call until two or three targets later... then I mess up that target because my focus shifted to the prior target! Argh! My response times are improving, but on the really fast stuff, it's difficult.

You're almost always better off making up the miss.

[Jake Di Vita]

How don't you agree with it?

Calling the shot is knowing exactly where the bullet went the instant it left the barrel. There is no gray area here...either you are right...or you aren't. If you aren't right....and the bullet impacted some place other than where you called it....you didn't call it correctly.

[Nik Habicht]

So... what is 'the importance' of calling every shot if you're going to call misses?

The importance of calling misses is that you know you need a make-up shot ---- right now, not three targets later..... (And I'm the guy who can regularly start the reload, before I've finished taking the last shot before the reload....)

I am enjoying this thread.

I wonder if there are other people like me, who are getting better at calling their shots, but their brains freeze on a bad shot. I think this reduces to not having a plan on whether I should reengage paper when I call a B/C/D hit. When should I reengage and when is it better to keep moving?

I'm liking this thread to --- and I shoot mainly production. If I call a bad shot, I make it up --- right there, immediately, automatically. When I'm calling my shots my split between shots 2 and 3 sounds just like the one between 1 and 2. If you've already moved on --- it's probably too late to make-up the shot ---- but you should strive for all alphas the rest of the stage, 'cause you'll need 'em.......

I realized the power of shot calling at the 2004 Nats --- I had a couple of disastrous days at my second Nationals. I'd gotten preoccupied with thinking about how fast I needed to shoot, rather than concentrating on hitting the targets. I was also keeping track of the hit factors the Supersquad was shooting --- and comparing my performance to theirs, right down to setting a goal of shooting 50% of their hit factor. I crashed pretty hard on the fourth day, tanking 3 out of four or five stages. On the last day, I was determined to simply shoot alphas, no matter how long it took. First stage, I put two alphas on every target until the last ---- I hit the trigger too soon on the first shot, call it as way left --- possibly as far as a Delta, take two more shots, call them both as Alphas. Turns out I've got three alphas on the target --- two close together in the center, one bisecting the left Alpha-Charlie perforation. The splits sounded like a planned triple ---- and I remember thinking to myself "So this is how this shot calling should work....."

[9x23]

How don't you agree with it?

Calling the shot is knowing exactly where the bullet went the instant it left the barrel. There is no gray area here...either you are right...or you aren't. If you aren't right....and the bullet impacted some place other than where you called it....you didn't call it correctly.

+1

[ihatepickles]

If I call a bad shot, I make it up --- right there, immediately, automatically. When I'm calling my shots my split between shots 2 and 3 sounds just like the one between 1 and 2. If you've already moved on --- it's probably too late to make-up the shot ---- but you should strive for all alphas the rest of the stage, 'cause you'll need 'em.......

So you reengage always? Using minor scoring, if an A + C takes you .30 seconds (26.6 HF) and an A + C + A takes you .45 seconds (22.2 HF), how can you justify this?

I agree if you hesitate at all you've lost your opportunity and you're better off just continuing the course of fire. I think I personally need a better plan on when to reengage and work that out before I'm standing in the starting box.

I'd love to hear about some good real-world examples of how making up B/C/D hits can help my score. After some thinking I'm beginning to think I should only reengage if:

Neither of my shots is an A

-or-

Either shot is a M or a D

(Keep in mind, I'm being scored minor)

[Nik Habicht]

If I call a bad shot, I make it up --- right there, immediately, automatically. When I'm calling my shots my split between shots 2 and 3 sounds just like the one between 1 and 2. If you've already moved on --- it's probably too late to make-up the shot ---- but you should strive for all alphas the rest of the stage, 'cause you'll need 'em.......

So you reengage always? Using minor scoring, if an A + C takes you .30 seconds (26.6 HF) and an A + C + A takes you .45 seconds (22.2 HF), how can you justify this?

I agree if you hesitate at all you've lost your opportunity and you're better off just continuing the course of fire. I think I personally need a better plan on when to reengage and work that out before I'm standing in the starting box.

I'd love to hear about some good real-world examples of how making up B/C/D hits can help my score. After some thinking I'm beginning to think I should only reengage if:

Neither of my shots is an A

-or-

Either shot is a M or a D

(Keep in mind, I'm being scored minor)

I'm still perfecting this whole seeing thing ---- and my answer could have something to do with my personality type. If I pull the trigger and see a less than perfect sight picture, I choose to fire another round, because not to do so, is to take too large a risk. That said, I seem to have stages where I'm focused, and paying attention to the things I need to see, and I fire the required number of rounds to score, no more. Then I have other stages, where I'm not paying attention to anything, and all of a sudden I'm firing an extra or more at every position ---- I hate it when I do that!

BTW --- your hit factor math doesn't work ---- because we're not firing these extra rounds in a vacuum, they're ocurring in the larger contect of a stage. Just for fun I averaged Rob Leatham's hit factors for the 18 Nationals stages, and my own --- it's really unscientific, but Mr. Leatham averaged 7.046 points per second over the course of the match to my 3.7755 points per second. That means that Mr. Leatham had .282 seconds to turn a C into an A, while I had .528 seconds to do the same. You've got way more time for Deltas --- I had 1.056 seconds to make up each of mine ---- and I had seven for the whole match.

I had 72 Charlies in this Nationals ---- and my goal for next year is to chp that down to one per stage. Many could have been avoided if I'd practiced on Classics.....

[Shawn Knight]

I wonder if there are other people like me, who are getting better at calling their shots, but their brains freeze on a bad shot.

I tell you it is frosty in AK and my brain freezes all the frickin'. I am starting to remember where the sights were when I shoot. To me it is not so much calling the shot as it is remembering where the sights were. I have hindsight right now having only done this for a few months. At first I shot mostly IDPA so the accuracy was what they preached, so when I started shooting USPSA Production I was looking for all A's. If I had a bad shot it would make me hesitate in the middle of a stage and think about what I had done to come to this point and maybe I should take another shot and I might want to look at the sights a little more and try to see them on the target at center of mass and maybe a little high because of the IDA circle screwing me up a bit or that I need to focus a little more on the front sight and less on speed.

Feel some of that frost now??

Now that you just read all that imagine thinking all of that to yourself in the middle of a stage!! I still do it sometimes but not nearly as much as I used too. So I guess the 1-29% is in the higher portion for me. I hope to think less and aim more in tomorrows match.

[ihatepickles]

BTW --- your hit factor math doesn't work ---- because we're not firing these extra rounds in a vacuum, they're ocurring in the larger contect of a stage. Just for fun I averaged Rob Leatham's hit factors for the 18 Nationals stages, and my own --- it's really unscientific, but Mr. Leatham averaged 7.046 points per second over the course of the match to my 3.7755 points per second. That means that Mr. Leatham had .282 seconds to turn a C into an A, while I had .528 seconds to do the same. You've got way more time for Deltas --- I had 1.056 seconds to make up each of mine ---- and I had seven for the whole match.

I'm not following what you mean.

If you reengage and the points vs. time don't justify the extra rounds, why shoot? How are you gaining an advantage (i.e. how do you propose to remove the vacuum and convert what you're saying to the scoresheet?)

It seems that if you have an Alpha and a B/C you (not you but even a superhuman shooter) can't fire a 3rd round fast enough to make the shot worth it.

An example of what I'm saying:

Minor Scoring in effect

You fire an A + C (8 points) in .30 seconds. This give you a HF of 26.6. If you reengage, you have to fire the 3rd shot with a split of .075 seconds and hit an Alpha to make the time worth the shot. (10 points in <.375 seconds gives a HF of >= 26.6)

I don't think the 3rd shot is worth it, I can't fire the last shot quickly and accurately enough to make the score change.

[wide45]

QUOTE

If you are off by an inch...guess what...you didn't call the shot.

I don't agree with this.

How don't you agree with it?

Calling the shot is knowing exactly where the bullet went the instant it left the barrel. There is no gray area here...either you are right...or you aren't. If you aren't right....and the bullet impacted some place other than where you called it....you didn't call it correctly.

Knowing exactly?

It is pretty rare to need to aim a shot into a 1 inch area. I use a sight focus for the shot I'm making. See and aim while working the trigger. The sights are where the bullet went, when it fires. The sight focus in calling the shot, is the same as aiming. Most of the time I'm working with a zone of accuracy of several inches.

Are you telling me that you always see the sights with lazer clarity, and can read them to an inch on any target?

I agree that if the bullet did not go where where you called it, you missed the call.

I disagree with the inch part.

[Jake Di Vita]

I can tell you with absolute certainty that I do not call every shot.

Having to aim within a 1 inch area has nothing to do with calling the shot...they are two seperate and distinct things.

My point is - calling the shot is knowing exactly where the bullet went as soon as it left the barrel....exactly is the key word here. If you don't know exactly where it went....you didn't actually call the shot. You may have been close and it may have hit in the intended scoring zone...but that doesn't mean you called it correctly. Just because you get the desired result doesn't mean that the method to get there was perfect.

[EricW]

I just got hooked up with an Airsoft STI courtesy of dablaster. (www.protechco.com) It's been incredibly enlightening in terms of shot calling. I've learned that I've not been retracting my focus to my front sight for my first shot off of the draw. I also now question whether I've really been seeing my sights lift like I need to.

Basically what it boils down to is that if you're not seeing your front sight moving around the COF like a pogo stick, you're not calling your shots. It's never been more plain to me than now.

I believe Manny's going to have a class just prior to the FL Open. If you're not sure if you're calling your shots or not, he can get you straightened out.

E

[SmittyFL]

I'm not sure everybody understands the concept or skill of shot calling. It sounds like a lot of people are saying the same thing but using different verbage. Calling the shot and aiming are totally different. You can call the shot in the A zone or you can call it into the berm....or over the berm for that matter. Like Pat said, it's just knowing where the shot went. Shot calling is probably the most difficult skill in the game.

Jake is correct in his definition but I think for our game most of us could agree a lesser degree of precision would suffice as a definition. (at least it does for me) I think I call most of my shots but I usually can't call them within a couple of inches. I call them Good, Delta, Mike, or I don't know. The last two always require make ups and Delta sometimes does.

Pickles, the reason your math is off is you're only looking at the hit factor for one target. You have to look at your hit factor for the whole stage. Shooting minor on a 10 factor stage you have .40 seconds to make up a Delta and 1.5 to make up a mike and keep the same HF you would have had, if you make them up any quicker you're going to have a better hit factor. On a 5 factor stage you've got .40 to make up a Charlie. In your examples, just factoring one target, your HF's are very high. If there were an actual stage with 20 plus HF, then your math would be correct.

Major or minor, there are very few instances when you would not want to make up a mike. Last round of a mag and it would require a reload is about the only one I can think of. Which was one statement earlier, even the big dogs don't call all their shots or they would never miss. Someone said you can miss and still call your shots. That's true but if you called it a miss you would have made it up in most cases and therefore wouldn't have had a miss, thus they must not have called that shot. I think that was the point anyway.

It doesn't take any longer to call a shot than it does to not call it. You either do it or you don't. Like I said above, it is a difficult skill. So simple in concept, but hard to do all the time.

To answer the orginal question "What are you doing when you aren't calling your shots?" For me it is usually target focus. I call it a lack of concentration. I don't shift my focus back to the front sight and bam there goes a shot I have no real idea of where it went. It's most likely on paper, but I don't KNOW that.

There was a thread somewhere about a super squad dvd and they were taking a lot of extra shots. That is the reason, it might have been an Alpha but they either fired it too fast or weren't watching the sights properly and didn't call the shot. Because they didn't know where it went, they fired another one.

My 2 sense.........

Edited November 5, 2006 by SmittyFL

[Sharyn]

The importance of calling misses is that you know you need a make-up shot ---- right now, not three targets later.....

oh! Thanks!

To say that calling shots is unrealistic for those trying to improve is pretty much wrong.

Sorry, this is still bugging me. If you will take the time to read what I posted, and try to understand what I'm saying, I think you'd realize we are saying similar things.

I did NOT say calling shots is unrealistic for those trying to improve... I said

I think calling every shot in IPSC/USPSA competition is unrealistic

If Tom Dean, Jake and Smitty readily admit they don't call every shot... I think it's unrealistic to expect that from us mere mortals... NOT that it's not something to stive for, simply that it's unrealistic.

[wide45]

If Tom Dean, Jake and Smitty readily admit they don't call every shot... I think it's unrealistic to expect that from us mere mortals... NOT that it's not something to stive for, simply that it's unrealistic.

If you are convinced you can't, there is no way you will.

Trust, and let it happen.

Nobody said you are going to do it every time, but don't delude yourself into thinking you can't do it this time.