Random Question

[bgary]

Random question: I have a friend, who is new to shooting and looking for some introductory instruction (basic handgun safety, gun handling, etc).

Became aware of an instructor, and was able to view a "promo" video of the instructor in action. The video shows the instructor doing things like... walking in *front* of a whole line of students as they practice an isosceles stance with (hopefully) unloaded firearms... standing in front of a student, looking directly into the muzzle of a student's gun (presumably to give feedback on sight alignment)... etc.

My friend, rightly I think, asked whether these actions violate the rules of gun safety, and... in doing so, would devalue this person as a viable instructor of "gun safety". The instructor, for what it is worth, lists "NRA-certified Handgun Safety Instructor" in his credentials, and is the go-to safety instructor for the range where the training takes place.

I'm not objective on this. Would love to know (especially from other NRA-certified instructors)... is this common practice? Is it a part of the current NRA safety curriculum? Does it "make a statement" about the instructor's credibility or judgment that should lead to "going somewhere else" for beginner-level instruction?

Thx

Bruce

[davidball]

My friend, rightly I think, asked whether these actions violate the rules of gun safety

Yep.

and... in doing so, would devalue this person as a viable instructor of "gun safety".

Yep.

IMHO

[tightloop]

It is so easy to do it correctly, why do some people always get it wrong...?

[Guy Neill]

I've never had any NRA courses teach violating any safety rule. Being lucky enough to have a senior training counselor locally, he has always advocated and demonstrated safety. I cannot believe the actions described would be sanctioned by the NRA or any other firearms group.

Guy

[BritinUSA]

If the instructor wants to check stance etc. then he should use those dummy practice guns (the blue ones).

[38supPat]

If the instructor wants to check stance etc. then he should use those dummy practice guns (the blue ones).

An excellent idea, another variation I have seen is for the instructor to check each firearm personally, then use bright (red or orange) tape and wrap it around the slide/frame or cylinder to insure they stay unloaded.

[Flexmoney]

It is so easy to do it correctly, why do some people always get it wrong...?

+1

[ima45dv8]

The older I get, the more I think Forrest's mama nailed it, "Stupid is as stupid does."

[DMS42]

I'm not an NRA Certified Instructor, but in an other place and time I was a light weapons instructor. There is no way that I would ever even think about walking in front of a group of people pointing guns at me. If they are real pistols and have not been deactivated by removing the firing pin or had the barrels plugged so that a live round could not be chambered at some time and some way a live round WILL be chambered and fired.

[Pierruiggi]

I don't want to appear pedantic, or create hard feelings; but I consider that a dogma (like rules carved in stone) should not replace common sense.

Yes, I do consider a basic level instruction should be provided with as much regard to safety as possible. However, I don't think certain practices remove credibility from a qualified instructor.

For example, check out these pictures (and the rest of the galleries too, there are some good pics there):

pic 1

pic 2

pic 3

pic 4

pic 5

pic 6

I'm certain that those guns were unloaded (and in the 1st pic you can see the pistol at slide lock), but, would you consider those top tier shooters and instructors' classes less safe because of those pics? I don't.

Do I think a "Joe Blow" should allow a "John Doe" to point his gun wherever he likes? No.

Are there situations where an instructor could place himself in front of a real and verified unloaded gun for instructional purposes and remain safe? In my opinion, yes.

There is simply NO way to always uphold the 4 rules of gun safety because of the simple fact that guns aren't always loaded, and are nearly always pointing at something I don't want to destroy (yes, when you carry, your gun is pointing at something, when you walk up a stair and someone is behind and below you, your holstered muzzle is covering them).

They're simply guidelines to follow by applying common sense.

I don't know about the specific person the original poster is talking about, but in abstract, I would consider a qualified instructor allowing students to manipulate guns in a controled and supervised environment to be common sense.

Edited November 2, 2006 by Pierruiggi

[Shawn Knight]

I don't want to appear pedantic, or create hard feelings; but I consider that a dogma (like rules carved in stone) should not replace common sense.

Yes, I do consider a basic level instruction should be provided with as much regard to safety as possible. However, I don't think certain practices remove credibility from a qualified instructor.

For example, check out these pictures (and the rest of the galleries too, there are some good pics there):

pic 1

pic 2

pic 3

pic 4

pic 5

pic 6

I'm certain that those guns were unloaded (and in the 1st pic you can see the pistol at slide lock), but, would you consider those top tier shooters and instructors' classes less safe because of those pics? I don't.

Do I think a "Joe Blow" should allow a "John Doe" to point his gun wherever he likes? No.

Are there situations where an instructor could place himself in front of a real and verified unloaded gun for instructional purposes and remain safe? In my opinion, yes.

There is simply NO way to always uphold the 4 rules of gun safety because of the simple fact that guns aren't always loaded, and are nearly always pointing at something I don't want to destroy (yes, when you carry, your gun is pointing at something, when you walk up a stair and someone is behind and below you, your holstered muzzle is covering them).

They're simply guidelines to follow by applying common sense.

I don't know about the specific person the original poster is talking about, but in abstract, I would consider a qualified instructor allowing students to manipulate guns in a controled and supervised environment to be common sense.

I guess that covers that one. Very interesting.

[BSeevers]

I will say that EVERY accident in an instructional environment was with an unloaded gun. Nobody goes into a class with the intention of a firearm going off.

I understand that training with an individuals personal gun is necessary and the only way to really do it is pictured. I see no need to stand in front of a barrel but that's me. I like blue guns for that. Just don't forget that even if you are a world champion, a rank beginner or anything in between you can have or be around an accident.

Edited November 2, 2006 by BSeevers

[shred]

I have been with world-class instructors when they went downrange of drawn pistols. They made very sure for themselves the gun was empty, and kept control of it while they were there-- always a hand or eyes on it.

Going downrange of a line of pistols and/or rifles other people are clearing or dinking with is a lot more reckless IMO.

[tightloop]

You can post pics of anyone you like..I still think it is a very poor idea...

[bgary]

Just for context, this is not (to the best of my knowledge) a world class instructor, nor are these world-class competition students. The video is of a "basic handgun safety" course, and so presumably these students are completely unfamiliar (or nearly so) with handguns.

I managed to capture a couple of stills out of the video...

The first picture actually sorta gets my attention more than the most. It is a student - one which may or may not have any gun experience at all, carrying a gun and ammo in a little plastic basket. The gun has a magazine in it - orange basepad, but no guarantee it is a training magazine - and there is a baggie of ammo in the basket... and the gun is pointed into the student's midsection.

Whether that is "unsafe" or not... I have to question whether that's the kind of thing a new-to-guns person should be learning, or implicitly allowed to believe is OK. And this is in a "promo" video where the instructor is ostensibly showing the quality of "safety instruction" he provides to new shooters.

At the end of the day, this is less about this instructor's individual style, and... for me, anyway, about whether or not the safety rules should be reinforced by *example* in a beginning handgun safety class. I, personally, think they should. And my personal opinion is that there is no room for "do as I say, not as I do" in a basic safety class. If you want students to learn gun-safety, then *demonstrate* gun-safety things.

I still think it is a very poor idea

Me, too.

B

Edited November 2, 2006 by bgary

[davidball]

I don't want to appear pedantic, or create hard feelings; but I consider that a dogma (like rules carved in stone) should not replace common sense.

Yes, I do consider a basic level instruction should be provided with as much regard to safety as possible. However, I don't think certain practices remove credibility from a qualified instructor.

For example, check out these pictures (and the rest of the galleries too, there are some good pics there):

pic 1

pic 2

pic 3

pic 4

pic 5

pic 6

I'm certain that those guns were unloaded (and in the 1st pic you can see the pistol at slide lock), but, would you consider those top tier shooters and instructors' classes less safe because of those pics? I don't.

Do I think a "Joe Blow" should allow a "John Doe" to point his gun wherever he likes? No.

Are there situations where an instructor could place himself in front of a real and verified unloaded gun for instructional purposes and remain safe? In my opinion, yes.

There is simply NO way to always uphold the 4 rules of gun safety because of the simple fact that guns aren't always loaded, and are nearly always pointing at something I don't want to destroy (yes, when you carry, your gun is pointing at something, when you walk up a stair and someone is behind and below you, your holstered muzzle is covering them).

They're simply guidelines to follow by applying common sense.

I don't know about the specific person the original poster is talking about, but in abstract, I would consider a qualified instructor allowing students to manipulate guns in a controled and supervised environment to be common sense.

It appears to me that the instructor in each of the pictures is off to the side (except for #1 where the gun is at slide-lock) and not directly in front of the muzzle. In fact, in Pic 5, Miculek is grasping the barrel as he speaks to the side, apparently maintaining control of the muzzle direction while not specifically focused on that particular shooter.

Edited November 2, 2006 by davidball

[BSeevers]

I ]

" I don't know about the specific person the original poster is talking about, but in abstract, I would consider a qualified instructor allowing students to manipulate guns in a controled and supervised environment to be common sense.

It appears to me that the instructor in each of the pictures is off to the side (except for #1 where the gun is at slide-lock) and not directly in front of the muzzle. In fact, in Pic 5, Miculek is grasping the barrel as he speaks to the side, apparently maintaining control of the muzzle direction while not specifically focused on that particular shooter.

Me too and I have done that to demonstrate a correct stance. Pic 1 well I would not do. The pics that Bruce posted are what I am saying are an instructors nightmare. R and J do have control of the situation but shxt can happen. I love Bruce's pics, its dark, there are too many people and the instructor is focused on one student......... Notice us old guys are adament against it. Why? We have seen it go bad.

Edited November 2, 2006 by BSeevers

[davidball]

Me too and I have done that to demonstrate a correct stance. Pic 1 well I would not do. The pics that Bruce posted are what I am saying are an instructors nightmare. R and J do have control of the situation but shxt can happen. I love Bruce's pics, its dark, there are too many people and the instructor is focused on one student......... Notice us old guys are adament against it. Why? We have seen it go bad.

Hey, hey, hey. There's no reason to get nasty . . .

[BSeevers]

Me too and I have done that to demonstrate a correct stance. Pic 1 well I would not do. The pics that Bruce posted are what I am saying are an instructors nightmare. R and J do have control of the situation but shxt can happen. I love Bruce's pics, its dark, there are too many people and the instructor is focused on one student......... Notice us old guys are adament against it. Why? We have seen it go bad.

Hey, hey, hey. There's no reason to get nasty . . .

How did you know I meant you?

[LPatterson]

As an NRA Basic Pistol Instructor my 2 cents are that there is nothing to be taught standing in front of a gun that can not be taught standing off to the side. I have seen an instructor that has a web site & claims to be a world class instructor walk down a line of NEW students the same as the indoor JPG shots. This is counterproductive because it causes the student to strain trying to hold a position until the instructor walks in front of several guns to get to a particular student. This could have been best accomplished by having the student draw the gun from a holster, show clear and the assume the firing position.

The worst thing an instructor can do is allow a new student to ignore basic safety rules. The instructors I work with stop all students at the door & make sure they are not bringing ammo into the classroom. If we demonstrate a procedure with a real gun we always show clear first, then make sure that gun is not pointed at anyone in the room. During the live fire portion of Personal Protection in the Home we have 1 instructor per student because the COF requires the student to put a certain # of hits on paper even if they have to reload.

[Pierruiggi]

You can post pics of anyone you like..I still think it is a very poor idea...

The idea of my post was not to say "Hey! Rob Leatham and Jerry Miculek do it, so it is fine!". Thus I wrote a more or less lengthy post with my opinion on the matter.

[lrsealey]

First off let me say that I do believe that these pics are violations of basic firearms safety rules. I am not an NRA instructor nor do I believe that the things I am about to say should be taught to new students. I have been a member of both the USMC and the US Army and have fought in several countries and trained infantry soldiers for many years. Many times when training for real life situations with students who have more than a basic understanding of marksmanship some of the safety rules go by the wayside in favor of realistic training. Of course you do not try to flag your buddy with the muzzle of your weapon but in real life it happens and it happens all the time. It cannot be avoided when you are walking around and working with loaded weapons 24 hours a day. And I myself have pointed my weapon at many people who I never had any intention of destroying unless they gave me a reason. I would just like to pose the idea that becoming comfortable working with and around loaded firearms and practicing safety in a realistic manner may be more beneficial than teaching people to be scared of weapons. Do accidents happen? Yes they do. Do they happen to even the most experienced people? Yes. Should we try to mitigate as much of this as possible? Yes but not at the expense of realistic practice. I know I am going to catch some flak for this but what I am talking about is "practical".

[kevin c]

That may be the case for the military (I've never served, and offer my appreciation who have). Most civilians don't have those scenarios to deal with, though.

I'd prefer, and think it sensible to have instructors who lead and teach by being good examples.

In the IPSC intro course taught at my club, the instructors agree - even with no live ammo, the guns get cleared every single time they get touched, and are still pointed in the safest direction available. (I'm thinking of getting either dummy guns or those dummy barrels that let you work the action of the guns for the class.)