.44 Magnum - They Can't All Be Right

[Lee Bell]

Any explanations or advice welcome – no liability, I’m just looking for someone to help reduce my confusion. It does not seem, to me, that everyone can be right and, when names in the industry don’t agree by this much, I get nervous.

I’m loading new Starline brass with Winchester 240 grain JHP bullets for hunting. I’m using Winchester WLP primers. I’ve already loaded to what Alliant says is maximum for 2400 and Blue Dot and fired 6 rounds of each through my chronograph. I also fired 6 rounds of factory PMC 240 grain JHPs through the chronograph. I understand MV in the manuals is based on their specific components and test barrel, but some of this information is just too different for me to believe everyone is right. You’ll see what I mean in a minute.

For 2400, Alliant says max is 18.7 grains for 1,440 fps. Speer says the max is 21 grains for 1,434 fps. Lyman says the max is 19.5. grains for 1,179 fps. My test rounds, with 18.7 grains, clocked an average 1,294 fps. I have a bit of trouble believing that Alliant, that makes the powder says 18.7 is the max while both Speer and Lyman show something significantly higher. I have even more trouble understanding how 21 grains could give no higher MV for Speer than 18.7 gave for Alliant or how 19.5 grains could give more than 200 fps less for Lyman than 18.7 did for Alliant and for me. It does not seem that everyone can be right.

For Blue Dot, Alliant shows a max of 14.4 grains for 1,380 fps. Speer shows a max of 13.7, for 1,285 fps. Lyman is way off the others, showing a starting load of 14.4 grains, the same as Alliant’s max load, at 960 fps and a max of 16 grains for only 1,160 fps. My test loads of 14.4 grains of Blue Dot gave me a MV of 1,296. Again, it does not seem that everyone can be right.

The factory PMC rounds, which set the standard I hope to match, gave me an average MV of 1,677 fps out of my Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 magnum.

I paid good money for the most current reloading manuals from Speer and Lyman. About now, I’m wondering why. Neither seems to make sense relative to what Alliant says about their own powder or the actual results I got using Alliant’s recommendations. Obviously some combination of components are safe at close to the 1,677 fps PMC, but, without knowing what the specific components are, I’m more than a little reluctant to push my luck that far.

Any thoughts, suggestions, etc.?

Lee

[Guy Neill]

You did not mentione which Speer Manual you have. Until recently, Speer used magnum primers with 2400, but the most recent uses standard primers. The more recent shows more 2400 being used with the standard primers.

There are myriad variables, meaning that each of the tested loads can be correct, for the conditions, componetns and equipment used. It is the principal reason you must start low and work up in your gun, with your components. Simply because a book lists a load does not mean you will be able to use it. Your own test results, using the published loads as a guide, are the real bottom line.

Guy

[AZ38super]

Data will vary depending on how current it is and each listing has a CYA factor in to protect themselves from someone having a major blow up. They usually list the setup info as to what they used in testing.

Also as you said each setup/gun will vary, they run tests on a weird setup and not actual guns.

I used to use H110 for hunting out of my Ruger Super Redhawk 44 mag with 240 and 200 grain Hornady JHP's. It had the greatest velocity and energy listed. My gun liked the 200's better than the 240's group size was smaller.

I took a nice 5x5 buck before I moved from South Dakota that took only 4 or 5 steps and dropped in his tracks with the 200 grain bullets (two shots in heart/lungs at 30 yards as he tried to run by me).

I looked at multiple charts but usually took the powder mfg chart as the one to go by.

Brass, primers, OAL and other changes will affect the results.

Good luck...

[Guy Neill]

I don't know how other manufacturers do it, but at Speer and Hornady, the CYA factor was whatever was built into the SAAMI specs. Both have loading manuals with max loads as close to SAAMI max, without going over as the tests showed. Thus, there was no added CYA factor for those manuals.

Also, no one has come up with a better means of measuring load pressures than using pressure guns. If that is a weird set-up, then so be it. At both Speer and Hornady, the loads are fired from standard guns following the pressure gun work-up, generally to get a real world velocity.

All this does not relieve the shooter/reloader from starting low and working up. His (her?) gun and components are different, and tolerances can stack up in one direction tovary results.

Best, normally, is to go with the bullet manufacturer's data, since the bullet is one of the larger variables. A plated bullet has less engraving force than a jacketed, meaning it will build usually pressures slower. This is commonly seen in the data manuals where the plated bulles have larger powder charges for the same weight jacketed bullet.

Always remember, we are dealing with pressures ranging from 15,000 psi to 50,000 psi, depending on the cartridge. It is always prudent to treat these sorts of pressures with respect. Start low and work up in your gun, using your components, watching for excessive pressure. While there are safety factors built into the data (through the standards), it is not wise to exceed them.

Guy

[superdude]

Guy is absolutely right with his advice, after all he is the real expert here.

The main point is that your actual results can vary significantly from what the published results are for all the reasons outlined and most simply because you're using a different gun (read BARREL) than they used.

its interesting that if our real world results are slower than the published results, we question why the published results are so far off. but, on the other hand, if our real world results are faster than the published results, we just smile a little wider.

do not be disheartened by your results. i test lots of stuff in my guns and the results vary with each barrel i use - they're all the same length but made by different companies. some barrels are fast, some are slow. and its consistent. that's just the reality of it.

[lmccrock]

The differences you see are within expected range for +/ 1 in of barrel length of magnums with lots of powder and the same load. I bought 2 different loads of 44 mag ammo which were advertised at 1200 and 1400 fps (test gun was 8" barrel). My gun, a 4" 629, got about 1000 and 1200.

Also, as has been said, the CYA factor. I know Winchester's published max loads for 231 were a little on the light side across the board for 9mm, 45, and 38special, especially considering how other books published stouter loads and my results confirmed that. I was not trying to magnumize anything, but Winchester's max loads were about mid-range for everybody else.

Another variable: ambient temperature.

Lee

[38superman]

Lee,

FWIW, here is how I normally handle that situation.

You will find that max loads and velocities vary quite a bit in published data for many loads and calibers.

I tend to give more credence to the data from the bullet manufacturer if available.

When loads vary greatly as in the example you gave with 2400 in the 44 mag, I typically

take the max load from at least three sources and average it.

Based on that average, I load what I call a pressure series.

Back off about 10 percent and increase the loads (in groups of 5) incrementally by 0.2 grains working your way up to your "average max".

Shoot 5 rounds at 18 gr, 5 rounds at 18.2 gr,.....etc.

Chronograph your loads for 5 shot average as you shoot each incremental load.

If you encounter any sign of excessive pressure or reach published velocity, stop there and pull the bullets on the rest of the loads.

If you reach your ave. max without any pressure signs and without achieving the expected velocity you have some choices.

You can continue to incrementally increase the load until you get pressure signs or acheive the expected velocity.

or

You can simply try a different powder and see if the results are more favorable.

This is something that becomes a judgement call.

I would push it a bit it if using a relatively slow powder, probably not with something on the fast side.

Under no circumstances would I go beyond the highest published load.

In more than 30 years of loading I have never had a mishap.

This comes from a simple and unwavering philosophy.

Err on the side of caution.

Risking getting hurt just to squeeze that last 100 fps out of your load is reckless.

If the difference between 1300 fps and 1400 fps will make or break your hunt, get a bigger gun.

Tls

Edited November 4, 2006 by tlshores