TreblePlink Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 I'm a new RO. Lets say you are running a known shooter at a club match, and immediately after his last shot, pointed downrange, he removes the mag, ejects the remaining round, works the slide a couple of times, clicks the hammer down, no boom, and holsters. Everything's fine, except he does this prior to you issuing any commands besides "If you are finished ..." Is this Okay, or how would you handle it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 I repeat the command: "If you are finished unload and SHOW clear." That usually gets the idea across. After that I remind them that the clock stops on their last shot. There's nothing to gain from showing off and plenty to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 If you are finished, unload and show clear. If clear, hammer down, holster. Range is clear. Start scoring. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreblePlink Posted October 24, 2006 Author Share Posted October 24, 2006 Okay, so you would finish the range commands with his gun in the holster - no big deal? If you are finished, unload and show clear.If clear, hammer down, holster. Range is clear. Start scoring. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 I think the easiest way to deal with the problem is to repeat "show clear" even if they've already holstered. Stick with the standard range communication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 If I'm ROing, I need to see that the gun is clear ---- so I'll be asking to see that..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ong45 Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 What do you do when the shooter ends the stage without permission? Is it a safety issue? Guy being ornery? If shooter refuses to show clear again , what would you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 If shooter refuses to show clear again , what would you do? 10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master must be notified as soon as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 If I'm ROing, I need to see that the gun is clear ---- so I'll be asking to see that..... What he said. Nik does it to me, and I'm the Robin to his Batman, running one of the local matches. It shouldn't matter who the shooter is, if you didn't see that chamber you should ask him to show clear again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 I would just ask him ot show clear again..does not sound like he is being abusive or disrespectful in any way..just done it enough times that he probably thought you were looking.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) I would just ask him ot show clear again..does not sound like he is being abusive or disrespectful in any way..just done it enough times that he probably thought you were looking.. I'm with TL on this one. First, the intent of the range command change was to put the onus on the shooter to clear the weapon (hence, "If Clear, Hammer Down and Holster). The old command of, "Gun Clear, Hammer (Striker) Down and Holster," put the responsibility of clearing the gun on the RO. Since he's dropped the hammer (in theory on an empty chamber, since you should be watching him unload the magazine and eject the round in the chamber), he's acknowledged that he's cleared the firearm and as such taken responsibility for that action. What I would then do is request to see that the gun is clear. Since you are NEVER to holster a loaded firearm during a course of fire, if there is a round in that chamber, he can be disqualified for unsafe gun handling. If there's not, I've cleared the weapon and then would just talk to the guy about in the future, holding up and doing everything he did is okay, just wait on the holstering part. For the most part, he's probably just rolling with the stage sequence and didn't think about it. No signs of unsportsmanlike conduct (which is a crappy rule to begin with) and no need to DQ for that. Rich Edited October 25, 2006 by uscbigdawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sci Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 UMMMMM you can reholster a loaded gun during a course of fire you just cant be required to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Since you are NEVER to holster a loaded firearm during a course of fire, if there is a round in that chamber, he can not be disqualified for unsafe gun handling. Rich Rule 8.2.5 specifically allows the reholstering of the pistol during the course of fire if it is done safely. The rule prohibits the shooter from being required to reholster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) Alright. Should have looked it up first. (I know to do that in the future....Nazi's ). Rich ETA: FWIW, you can't reholster while in a tunnel (10.5.4), so in your face! (I'm so kidding). Also, per 10.5.11.1, if you holster a loaded, single action handgun (since above I said that's what I'd be checking for) with the safety not applied (which you'd do after you've "cleared" the pistol) it's a DQ. So . Edited October 25, 2006 by uscbigdawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 (edited) Also, per 10.5.11.1, if you holster a loaded, single action handgun (since above I said that's what I'd be checking for) with the safety not applied (which you'd do after you've "cleared" the pistol) it's a DQ. So . Unloaded is unloaded. Edited October 25, 2006 by wide45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Loaded and holstered with the safety off is a no-go. That's the point. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I've only seen it a few times, usually with a PO-ed shooter for whatever reason, so I usually try to ask nicely "Can I see clear again? I missed it the first time" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Let's see... Hammer down, you can't put the safety on, at least on a 1911. Unless the shooter lowered the hammer, it is unlikely there is a round chambered. It would have gone "BOOM" when he droped the hammer. at which point you would issue the DQ. True, you could decock a DA, but then again, if you did, it would not be grounds for a DQ. I agree with Nik, Ask to see the clear gun, then issue the commands again. On this subject, how do yo all feel about the bullet flip and catch? Personally I do not like it, I think it is unsafe gun handling, although I have not DQ'd anyone for it. I do talk to them. That catch is just flash, On has his attention focused other than on the gun, hands are moving in the air in the region of the gun, aneasy sweep and if there is an AD, it could be ugly Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Loaded and holstered with the safety off is a no-go. That's the point.Rich Sure, but we don't have a loaded gun. Let's see...Hammer down, you can't put the safety on, at least on a 1911. Unless the shooter lowered the hammer, it is unlikely there is a round chambered. It would have gone "BOOM" when he droped the hammer. at which point you would issue the DQ. No. You have not given the hammer down command. Assuming the competitor fired it safely into the backstop, he is still shooting his stage. Does no one remember the original question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Let's see...Hammer down, you can't put the safety on, at least on a 1911. Unless the shooter lowered the hammer, it is unlikely there is a round chambered. It would have gone "BOOM" when he droped the hammer. at which point you would issue the DQ. Jim Hmmm. The command "If clear, hammer down holster" has not been made. Shooter drops mag, pulls trigger, BOOM into the berm, holsters. Is it a DQ? Cite the rule. The shot was fired during the COF, in a safe direction. I suppose that maybe a case could be made for DQ under 10.4.3? But if the unload/show clear command hasn't been issued, would even that apply? FWIW, I have seen shots fired into the berm in the general direction of a target for the purpose of emptying the gun in multi-gun stages. COF states engage Targets X,Y,Z with pistol, place empty pistol on table, engage ABC with Shotgun. Sometimes it's faster to just dump the last couple of rounds into the berm than to drop the mag and rack the slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Hmmm. The command "If clear, hammer down holster" has not been made. Shooterdrops mag, pulls trigger, BOOM into the berm, holsters. Is it a DQ? Cite the rule. The shot was fired during the COF, in a safe direction. I suppose that maybe a case could be made for DQ under 10.4.3? But if the unload/show clear command hasn't been issued, would even that apply? "10.4.3 A shot which occurs while preparing to or while actually loading, reloading or unloading a handgun...." Looks like a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Hmmm. The command "If clear, hammer down holster" has not been made. Shooter drops mag, pulls trigger, BOOM into the berm, holsters. Is it a DQ? Cite the rule. The shot was fired during the COF, in a safe direction. I suppose that maybe a case could be made for DQ under 10.4.3? But if the unload/show clear command hasn't been issued, would even that apply? "10.4.3 A shot which occurs while preparing to or while actually loading, reloading or unloading a handgun...." Looks like a DQ. Beat me to the punch! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 If I'm ROing, I need to see that the gun is clear ---- so I'll be asking to see that..... What he said. Nik does it to me, and I'm the Robin to his Batman, running one of the local matches. Really? Do you guys wear the masks and shiny tights as well? Loaded and holstered with the safety off is a no-go. That's the point.Rich If he pressed the trigger and the hammer dropped,and the gun didn't make a loud noise, it's safe to say the gun is unloaded. SNIP-On this subject, how do yo all feel about the bullet flip and catch? Personally I do not like it, I think it is unsafe gun handling, although I have not DQ'd anyone for it. I do talk to them. That catch is just flash, On has his attention focused other than on the gun, hands are moving in the air in the region of the gun, aneasy sweep and if there is an AD, it could be ugly Jim Jim, What is the big deal with the flip? I don't do it, but I have seen RO's lose their minds over this. If the shooter sweeps himself, DQ him. If the shooter AD's, DQ him. I can't say I 've ever seen a shooter get his hand in front of the muzzle while doing this. I have seen many shooters sweep themselves while opening doors, ports, and the like. Much better chance for an AD while doing that then when you are done with the actual course of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 If I'm ROing, I need to see that the gun is clear ---- so I'll be asking to see that..... What he said. Nik does it to me, and I'm the Robin to his Batman, running one of the local matches. Really? Do you guys wear the masks and shiny tights as well? Well I do .. I'm still trying to convince Nik that he would look dashing in a black cape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I agree that by the mechanics of a 1911, that it is high unlikely that the hammer would be down and there's no round in the chamber. I got it. My point is that I want to still see an empty chamber. Sheesh. As for the flip and catch. It's a non-issue. As for firing off rounds into the berm after dumping the mag, as long as it's in a safe direction, it doesn't bother me. I RO'ed the '04 MG Nat's in Reno and there were more than a few that we had to warn, when we started seeing ejection ports and magwells from the "techniques" folks were using to fire rounds into the side berms of the stage. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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