Limited 10 Or Single Stack Division?

[big_kahuna]

I'm new to this whole thing... My 14-year-old son and I just got started a couple of months ago, and I live in California. We came to a local match, had fun, and dreamed of getting an open or limited gun like the ones the "old timers" were running that day.

Then reality set in... I remembered that 10-round mags are all that are legally available here. No problem, I will just shoot L-10 and try to be happy with it. I like the idea of "racy" equipments like magwells, speedy holsters and pouches. So, I go scrape together what little disposable cash I have and buy an L-10 gun and some accessories. Glock 35, brass magwell, DOH, etc. I know that this is a Limited gun in most places, but here in Commiefornia it is an L-10 gun. My son is running my old single-stack Kimber because it fits his hand, and I already have it. He can run it in both SS and L-10, depending on mags. We are off and running.

Well, now it seems there is a possibility that a Glock for L-10 might not have been such a good idea... the Kimber seems okay. My Glock has had frame modifications and is now illegal for Production... it is not remotely competitive in Limited or open with my mags and accessories. If L-10 goes away, my $$$ Glock investment is basically useless to me for USPSA competition in California. The flip side: if SS goes away, my son can run the kimber with 10 round mags in L-10. I'm not affluent enough to easily write off several hundred dollars, much less thousands of dollars. Killing L-10 would hurt me and people like me. Doing away with SS would not bother me in the least, but I am sensitive to others who might feel pain at SS's demise.

I confess that I find it disturbing to hear comments along the lines of:

1. Fire your government and hire a new one (I've been trying, no success so far)

2. We have ours, suck it up and just shoot limited/production/etc (withholding comment for now)

3. Move out of California (I've considered it, not an option right now)

4. Now you have an excuse to buy another gun (okay... I've got the excuse... you gonna give me the money?)

et cetera ad nauseum

For me, L-10 meets our needs much better than SS. I hope it stays. I actually hope they both stay.

[JDBraddy]

I'm new to this whole thing... My 14-year-old son and I just got started a couple of months ago,

Killing L-10 would hurt me and people like me. Doing away with SS would not bother me in the least, but I am sensitive to others who might feel pain at SS's demise.

For me, L-10 meets our needs much better than SS. I hope it stays. I actually hope they both stay.

I'm new to this game too, and have already sold a gun I dearly loved and had owned 20 years, because I was told it wasn't legal to use in this sport, and Just bought a series 70 Goldcup decked out with custom add-on's and such, and ordered six ten round mags, holsters/mag pouches, etc.... intent on shooting L-10. I was then told I still had to get different equipment if I wanted to use the same gun for IDPA. Look, I'm enthusiastic enough about this game that I've spend more than a thousand bucks on equipment for it, after having shot in only two matches. However, if the rules keep changing, and I have to keep buying all new equipment every time someone thinks he's got a great new idea, then I'm afraid I might have to find a more consistant game, and you guys will have to carry on without me. JDBraddy

[Jim Norman]

There apparently is a move to eliminate L-10 and have just Single Stack.

To my way of thinking, this is VERY BAD MOJO. We have many people here that shoot L-10 using Glocks, or Berettas or S*I, Para etc. If the argument is that L-10 is just Limited Lite, so what. Oviously there are people that enjoy shooting L-10. I do. In point of fact,i amy shoot L-10 with my XD. Just because.

If we really want to differentiate L-10 from Limited, then maybe just adopt Production rules for holsters and equipment placement.

The argument that L-10 dilutes the pool is false. If you really want to reduce the number of competitiors, remove a division that is popular.

Our last match had:

8 L-10

11 Limited

12 Open

22 Production

0 Single Stack

Would the 8 have shot in Limited? some yes, but some shot single stacks in Limited.

We don't have a problem. Leave the divisions as they stand. There is no cost to the membership or the organization for having 6 divisions. There is great cost if people leave because the division they shoot is removed.

Many people shoot L-10 in NJ, but shoot Limited when traveling to other states. I am sure that this applies in California as well.

If you want L-10 to survive, I strongly suggest you send e-mail to the President as wellas your AD. Keep silent and we will lose.

Jim Norman

[itento]

First of all I'd like to say I was really put off when I learned that a MD for a Level I match can decide what equipment can be and can't be used at their match. As an affiliated club, they should run their matches by the current rule book(s). As a member in good standing with USPSA, I feel that I should be able to show up at any affiliated club and shoot my rule book legal firearm (including Open at Multigun matches). I would hope our section coordinators and area directors are on top of this. If the MD doesn't want to give me a prize, that's quite okay, but just don't go reinventing the rulebook.

Secondly, I believe in competition also, but my biggest competitor is myself. By vote, our club decided we would not spend money for prizes of any kind. Our match fee is $15.00. $5.00 of that goes to the parent gun range account for maintenance and targets (paper, tape, sticks, plywood, etc.), USPSA gets their cut, and the balance goes into a pool to buy better props (Texas Star, Flash Targets, Pepper Poppers, etc.). Our membership seems to appreciate the ability to shoot quality stages. Our IDPA club still gives out trophies, but they don't use the expensive steel that we do. I can't imaging "going for the money". To me, it's just a redistribution of wealth. If I'm a C or D shooter, why should my match fees be going to some M or GM in my division? And I remember "sandbagging" in Class. Our old club actually went to a local classification based on every stage of every match to try and get a handle on that. We would have USPSA C class shooters who were classified locally in A class because they purposely screwed up the classifiers. This is probably even a bigger problem in IDPA.

I started our club after a long absence from shooting because I loved USPSA style shooting (long stages, lots of bullets, now freestyle and 3-gun-multigun). Our club philosophy is "shoot what you brung".

Edited October 16, 2006 by itento

[Jim Norman]

A couple of points here.

The MD can decide to have a single division match locally, in fact he can run a Glocks Only match if he chooses. This is within the current rules.

Local classifications are not in the rules.

Sand bagging has been discussed in a couple of other threads. There are solutions but they all take a couple of things. We as members need to contact our ADs and then we as members need to be honest amongst ourselves and not sandbag when given the oppurtunity.

As to prizes, paying out or not paying out is certainly within the rules. The rules essentially set minimums for recognition or divisional and catagory winners.

In our section we pay divisional winner (5 in division) and class winners (3 in class) Occasionally we get enough people to pay 2 or even three deep in a class.

Match winner gets 1-1/2 times entry, class winners get entry fee. The structure is known and posted. D shooters are eligible to win in thier class and are not really subsidizing the match winner all that much.

Jim

[itento]

Jim, I love these forums because they do force you to get back into the rulebook. You are right, a MD can declare which Divisions will be recognized :

6.2.1 IPSC Divisions recognize different firearms and equipment (see

Appendix D). Each match must recognize at least one Division.

When multiple Divisions are available in a match, each Division

must be scored separately and independently, and match results

must recognize a winner in each Division.

however, you can not have a Glock only match according to the above.

Also it appears that if I show up to a Limited/Limited only match with my Open gun, I can still shoot, just not for score.

6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor

fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement

of a match, the competitor will be placed in the Division which,

in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with

the competitor’s equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range

Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will

shoot the match for no score.

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or

other requirements of a declared Division during a course

IPSC Rifle Rules, January 2004 Edition • 27

of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if

available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for

no score.

6.2.5.2 Acompetitor who is classified or reclassified as above must

be notified as soon as possible. The Range Master’s decision

on these matters is final.

[Jim Norman]

To a point I agree with you. However, you can actually have a Glocks only match. THere is a proviso somewhere that allows for a USPSA Sanctioned Match. I'd have to ask my AD, but we just had a discussion along these lines and it was agreed that a Glocks only (as an example) match was legal.

As to allowing someone to shoot a match, but not for score due to equipment, I have no real problem with that so long as there are available slots for everyone that has the proper equipment. Look at it this way. There are a limited number of slots to the Nationals. Would you give one to someone that announced before hand that he was going to shoot he Limited/ Limmited-10/ Revolver Nats with an STI open gun? The match is sold out, who should get the slot on the wait list? the Open shooter or another shooter with proper equipment?

On other point, small but I think important. We run under the USPSA rules here, not IPSC. There are many similarities, but there are also many differences. Soon enough, we will have our very own rulebook.

Personally, I would not try to shoot a Glock only match with my Para, nor would I try to attend a Revlover match with a bottom feeder.

My belief is that we need to be a big tent and that there is room here for all of the above. Have special matches. Have matches open to all. I think that a club's monthly match should be a regular match, open to all and scored for all. If the club wants to run a special match, have at it. I think that at the club level a sinlge division or brand of firearm should never be the regular match, but always held as a special.

My $0.02

Jim

[itento]

Jim, Agreed!

[Singlestack Wonder]

Quote ["As of this date...we have yet to learn from the mistakes we as an organization have made that spawned IDPA in the 1st place. Just as the NHRA couldn't survive with just Top Fuel, Pro Stock, and Funny Car...USPSA can't grow or simply survive with just Open and Limited Divisions. It's the "little guy" that buys the memberships, the t-shirts and hats, takes the RO courses, volunteers at the local clubs,and runs for USPSA elected office. If USPSA makes policy (primarily rules changes) that drive the little guy away...who will "carry the load?" Hope all you "less diluted" types are prepared to work a little bit harder."]

+10

[richardschennberg]

The states that still have a 10-round limit need their own IPSC Region. There is no reason for shooters in the free states to have rules based on laws in the totalitarian states.

[Vlad]

The states that still have a 10-round limit need their own IPSC Region. There is no reason for shooters in the free states to have rules based on laws in the totalitarian states.

Well by that logic we those revolver shooters who we never see should be droped, why carry them when only a handfull of shooters would be affected. And those Single Stack guys .. dump them too. Not the same thing you say? One is a choice and one is not? What do you care? No one seems to force you shoot L10 in your happy state so why do you give a damn what others shoot, it is still a choice Scratch that, lets even ignore that. At this years nationals there where 96 L10 shooters and 36 Revolver. And that is with L and L10 being shot at the same time. You want to eliminate a divison I have one for you and it starts with R. (BTW revolver shooters, please put down the rope, I'm not suggesting we do away with revolver, but how long before that happens do you think, if we start throwing out divsions with 3 times for competitors?)

So tell me, what rules affect you in your free state because of those evil states populated by alien flying monkeys?

On a separate note, I'm glad to see you are supportive of your fellow shooters and countrymen. Next time you have a problem in your state and need help, don't hesitate to ask, we will all rush out and help you.

[JakeMartens]

The states that still have a 10-round limit need their own IPSC Region. There is no reason for shooters in the free states to have rules based on laws in the totalitarian states.

Honestly

You cannot be serious about that, please tell me you forgot to put the smiley in there!!!

[Merlin Orr]

The states that still have a 10-round limit need their own IPSC Region. There is no reason for shooters in the free states to have rules based on laws in the totalitarian states.

Honestly

You cannot be serious about that, please tell me you forgot to put the smiley in there!!!

Hehe...Richard has a smiley on the post. Just shows that feelings run strong on this subject...

[Jim Norman]

Just a heads up. This is an issue that will not go away, but one or more divisions are likely to!

L-10 is not the same game as Limited. SS can play in L-10, Widebodies cannot play in SS, for that matter, most Single stacks can't play in Single Stack.

There are nearly 95,000 L-10 Classifers on record. There are 54,000 Production Classifiers, and there are 14,500 Revolver Classifiers on record.

If anyone wanted to cause trouble based upon participation, wouldn't one look at this and say Revolver and Production should be done away with, Obviously L-10 is twice as popular as production, and 6 times as popular as Revolver!

And as Vlad said, before anyone gets the rope out, I am NOT advocating that either division be done away with. In point of fact, I bought a new Production gun, a new Open gun and am contemplating a new Revolver. My Limited gun is getting re-barreled and I need to do a little work on my various Single Stacks before they are ready to compete with.

In other words, I like to shoot. I like to shoot in just about any division and no, I don't bring them all out and decide which to shoot based upon who is there. I just like to shoot different guns.

This said, keep what we already have and if you want, add in SS as a permanent division.

Write your AD and president if you don't want to see divisions go away.

Jim

[GeorgeInNePa]

With the direction that the political landscape seems to be taking, I wouldn't trash Limited 10 just yet.

We might need it in a few years.

[EricBudd]

With the direction that the political landscape seems to be taking, I wouldn't trash Limited 10 just yet.

We might need it in a few years.

Buy magazines now. Lots of magazines.

[walangkatapat]

With the direction that the political landscape seems to be taking, I wouldn't trash Limited 10 just yet.

We might need it in a few years.

How about a few months? This time the AWB will be permanent.

[GeorgeInNePa]

With the direction that the political landscape seems to be taking, I wouldn't trash Limited 10 just yet.

We might need it in a few years.

How about a few months? This time the AWB will be permanent.

I doubt they'll show their true hand that soon. I believe they want a chance at the White House in '08.

I don't think we need to panic, yet.

I am looking at buying myself a .50 before years end, as I believe that would be the first to go.

[ima45dv8]

I'm trying to come to grips with my decision to buy as many normal capacity magazines as I can in the next 24 months. I'm even going to get some of those high$$ 100-round mags for my AR that I rarely shoot. (Recommendations, anyone?)

I see lots o' money going out the door, but it's my small way of making a mark before they do.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

ETA: We're getting a bit off-track and into what may turn into a political discussion, aren't we?

Edited November 9, 2006 by ima45dv8

[GeorgeInNePa]

I'm trying to come to grips with my decision to buy as many normal capacity magazines as I can in the next 24 months. I'm even going to get some of those high$$ 100-round mags for my AR that I rarely shoot. (Recommendations, anyone?)

I see lots o' money going out the door, but it's my small way of making a mark before they do.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

ETA: We're getting a bit off-track and into what may turn into a political discussion, aren't we?

Yeah, maybe we should make a new thread in Questions That Don't Fit Anywhere. Maybe we could get away with discussing what we need/should buy, if we dance around the "political" issue.

[walangkatapat]

With the direction that the political landscape seems to be taking, I wouldn't trash Limited 10 just yet.

We might need it in a few years.

How about a few months? This time the AWB will be permanent.

I doubt they'll show their true hand that soon. I believe they want a chance at the White House in '08.

I don't think we need to panic, yet.

I am looking at buying myself a .50 before years end, as I believe that would be the first to go.

I think their arrogance will overcome any logic they have, but only time will tell. I hope you get that fifty soon, that's one of Feinsteins pet peeves.

[ihatepickles]

Can we please not talk politics? It's against forum posting guidelines and I don't want this thread locked.

[Chuck D]

No politics intended....

I just received a new Sig Arms e-mail newsletter today. Found the following ad interesting....

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The marketing blitz has begun......