Another (possible) Option For Secondary Short Range Irons.

[uscbigdawg]

Dave,

Great idea. I use these from AMS Machine. They are built 100x stronger and better than the stuff from YHM and are priced at or about the same. For Open, I run this base with their Picatinny Mount for JPoint's and Docter's just in front of my ACOG. Having it more forward gives me a more clear field of view (i.e. the objective lens and scope body are out of it).

I started using two of the bases (like you) one rear of the ACOG and one on the top of the tac rail on the top of my handguard that is on the same plane as the upper receiver for a really long sight radius. Sight-wise, it's about the same as yours. Basic peep and post, except I use QR BUIS, only 'cause I can fold them down and out of the way, when I don't need them. Very gadgety, but sweet when running it. I think I'm going to change the front sight to a fiber optic though.

Again, the stuff from AMS is super strong, and is TIGHT. Let me know if you have any questions. I highly recommend their stuff for the quality. Too, they're next project is to take these same pieces and add QD levers on everything. Talk about convenience.

Rich

ETA: If y'all are at the Area 6 3-Gun, I'll have some of their stuff on display along with their FF handguard system.

Edited October 11, 2006 by uscbigdawg

[scooterj]

My idea about using the Bushmaster folding sight didn't work.

I went the same route as Dave and all is well out to 50 yards or so.

[RH45]

My idea about using the Bushmaster folding sight didn't work.

I went the same route as Dave and all is well out to 50 yards or so.

Why didn't it work, were the heights different??

[persona non grata]

I used BigDave's idea of the canted rail pieces from Yankee Hill Machine. Just at 25 yards, the flip up rear sight ran out of windage adjusment. The flip up front sight's post was screwed down all the way.

(I was using a HiViz fiber optic post and I would recommend against it, BTW, because it only has 2 notches in it for the detent pin. If you're going to run a FO post get the one in Dillon's Blue Press magazine/catalog. It has more notches.)

At 25 yards, the bullets were right on for elevation but still hitting 2 inches to the left of the point of aim. There is enough thread left on the flip up front sight's clamping screw that I could put in a 1/8" to 3/16" thick shim to get the front sight where it needs to be. Probaby just a piece of aluminum or steel flat stock notched out for the clamping screw. Or actually maybe a little farther than where it needs to be and then correct the windage back to the left w/ the rear sight.

At the range, I tried loosening the gas black and twisting the whole thing around. That might have worked but it made the gun puke. Probably something about the gas tube not in line or squared up to the gas key on the bolt carrier group. So I twisted it back, it ran again.

I have been emailing Yankee Hill Machine about this thread the past several days. I have been trying to get them to mill up an all in one (no separate canted rail pieces), but I think they think the money or the market is just not there to warrant the expense in retooling.

(hey, if you think otherwise, please email them and tell them that they are missing out on market share in the 3 gun competitions)

I even told them that the next best thing is the iron sight system by JP Rifles, which goes for $99. Now, you don't have to possess a JP/VTAC modular handguard on your AR (another $150), but it looks like it would help. The other option seems to drill and tap your non JP free float tube and bolt/screw JP's iron sight "rail" to your handguard.

I told YHM it would be sweet if they could get a canted front and rear sight combo together for under $100.

Sorry JP.

The YHM tech guy I was emailing said it could be that my gas block sits lower than the rail on top of the upper receiver. I haven't looked that closely at it, so my gun might actually be dead on at 50 yards or it might be 2 inches to the right. I don't know, yet.

(I thought I was going to run my AR in limited so I originally bought the flip up rear and front, thinking that someday I would buy a nice scope and they would just be a BUIS system. Well, I saw BigDave's thread here, and scrounged a scope from somewhere else, then bought the canted rail pieces.)

Edited August 16, 2007 by persona non grata

[TRUBL]

FYI......the JP Short range Tacticalsight has been re-designed. Up front they use a std A2 set up now (no set screw), the rear sight cut is now a std. Novak Cut.....AND they raised it to be std A2 Sight Height.

Ok....still a 6" sight radius.....but still Super fast and hey, you don't need a short range system for over 30yds anyways.

I'm hitting consistant A zone hits at 30yds....after that, I switch to my std sight set up

[Les Snyder]

I did a home brew on an older 4x32 TA01 coupled with a rail top gas block on a Rock River upper

1. used the see thru factory mount... inserted a piece of 10-32 threaded rod, pair of nylock nuts, round side inward on front, to attach a piece of flat aluminum stock for the rear aperture..... rod centered witha piece of drilled round stock to center the threaded rod.

2. windage adjustable aperture was some trial and re-do...to get the aperture in the best head position with the carbine rolled counterclockwise....ended with a compromise but works well for the price...aperture a piece of flat aluminum with horizontal slot milled that fits the threaded rod beneath the eyepiece of the ACOG... aperture is a circular "ghost ring" thickness (close to 1/8 in thick) with 1/4 in diameter hole ...position of aperture as high as possible ( I made 3 trials) to the upper right that clears the ACOG (visualize a Choate charging handle for an 1100)

3. front sight is a Burrus "Zee" ring milled off...bend an "L" in a piece of welding rod, wrap with tape to make snug fit in bore...rotate until you get a traditional peep/post sight alighment with carbine canted to most comfortable position, and indicate the angle to be drilled on the sight base... drill and tap the base for 10-32....more trial and re-do...turn a short section of threads off a piece of 10-32 rod for the sight post.... use a nylock nut as a jam nut to adjust elevation.... bore sight point of aim, a cartridge based laser bore sighter would have helped... took a couple of trials....

4. finished up with some black majic marker on the apeture and a bamboo viper green for the front post... It is a little vulnerable to damage and takes care when placing in soft case but so far works well.. out to about 25yards... price was right

regards Les

[persona non grata]

Pics, Les, I need some pics.

FYI......the JP Short range Tacticalsight has been re-designed. Up front they use a std A2 set up now (no set screw), the rear sight cut is now a std. Novak Cut.....AND they raised it to be std A2 Sight Height.

Ok....still a 6" sight radius.....but still Super fast and hey, you don't need a short range system for over 30yds anyways.

I'm hitting consistant A zone hits at 30yds....after that, I switch to my std sight set up

Okay, TRUBL, do you have a JP/VTAC modular handguard then?

[TRUBL]

Actually, yes and no....

I have actually 4 different types of FFt's on my guns. On the Vtac, np, tac rail mounts right on. On the DPMS FFT, I drilled and tapped. On my Carbon Fiber, I drill thru and used nuts and FHCS's. And on my 4 rail, I used JP 45 degree offsets (those are a little spendy)

Edited August 17, 2007 by TRUBL

[J-Ho]

Well, doing some reading here on ole be.com regarding options for short range iron sights used in conjuction with a scope for Tactical class is not very positive.

If you don't have the right handguard, mouting rails can be a PITA. One of the available sights requires, for many, the use of additional risers or 10/22 specific mounts to bring the sight up to a useable height. Once it is there though, some others complain that the sight radius is too short.

Another manufacturer has another option. Again, a forearm mounted sight rail. But, this time with a longer sight radius and it is already at the "right" height. But, this one appears to be permanently installed to the forearm tube. I'm not certain if that is true or not, I haven't seen one. If it is (I don't see a rail that it is mounted to mfg's photos), that is room on the tube that I need for my big hands.

Then, I started thinking. (quit laughing)

I love my new (to me) TA11 ACOG. Great glass. Some people can shoot it really fast up close - I can't (yet). I need an option.

Irons seem to be an option. Sight radius is a good thing. One well known 3-gun competitor has told me that he feels that up close, nothing is as fast as iron sights. Obviously others agree (see above). Why not have a real A2 sight in the back and a real front sight post up front, but just off to the side? Well, the fine folks at Yankee Hill Machine might have, albeit unintentionally, have the tools for a possible solution.

I only say possible b/c I rec'd the parts tonight and just mounted them up. I haven't shot them yet. But, doing some transitions from the ACOG to the irons seemed really smooth. Unless there is an adjustment issue, I can't see it not being an option. The ideal solution? That's not for me to say for you. I'll let you know what I think of them.

That looks good to me, but what's that funny looking thing on your rifle, the round tube thing with glass in it?

[L9X25]

These are some quick images of Les's rifle and his version of short range sight. Please forgive the quality but I stepped on them heavily to conform to the forum restrictions. The image of the front sight is too bright and the "bamboo viper green" washed out. You can DEFINITELTY spot the front sight quickly. I like the way Les's system is very close to the natural line of sight through the scope. It is a very quick and easy transition to the irons and back to the glass.

Leo

Edited August 19, 2007 by L9X25

[Les Snyder]

I want to thank Leo for posting the pictures .... correction.. the threaded rod and front sight is 8x32 and not 10x32...I start my 27th year with 9th graders tomorrow and not thinking too well... regards Les

[Chills1994]

Pardon the Necropost....

I just wanted to duck in here real quick to say a few things after shooting my first rifle side match the other day:

1. Kurt Miller is right: up close nothing is faster than irons. I think that will be my new mantra from now on. LOL!

2. BigDave's Yankee Hill Machine Canted Sight system kinda works for me. I had a friend, Extremeshot, mill up a piece of

aluminum to get the YHM flip up front sight where it needs to be windage wise. Elevation wise, it seemed like my shots

were hitting low on the paper targets, and this was like at 10 or maybe 15 yards. So that leaves me looking for a flip

up rear that is BOTH windage AND elevation adjustable. A quick search on Brownell's, I found this from Wilson Combat:

One model is 120 bucks and the other model is 180 bucks, retail.

3. A 3 X 9 by 40 scope for a "carbine match" is probably a bit much. I did get a real crisp picture of the pasters and

sometimes the perforation, so I knew exactly where the A-zone was. LOL! The stages were converted over pistol

stages, so the paper targets were up close, probably not farther than 35 yards away. I never knew there were so many

variations in the color of pasters. LOL! And that was on 4 power.

4. Just shooting those canted irons for one stage I didn't feel intimidated at all by the guys shooting the hi-zoot Trijicon

Reflex's or the EOTech Halosights.

5. I am planning on shooting the FN match in Missouri in June, and I might just stick with iron sights for everything

(Limited). I'm a cheap a$$ like that.

6. For the close in local match stuff, I'm thinking a 9mm AR topped with a C-more would be just the ticket.

7. These rifle side matches are a rush. It really gets the blood pumping.

Again, pardon the necropost.

Thanks to BigDave for kicking this whole thread off.

(Off to the search function to see what the Limited guys are using for irons....)

[jobob]

So, Mr. "Optics are a crutch for the lazy" uses a 3 - 9 scope?

[Chills1994]

Go back and re-read what you skimmed over. There were a couple of caveats I had in that post/thread.

Like if you have bad eyes. Otherwise, I was just pointing out us Americans take the path of least resistance, even if it means splurging 400 to 1,200 dollars for some refined sand and an aluminum tube.

Thanks, though for the label. I do 'preciate it. I think that would make a really great bumper sticker or an on the back of a match t-shirt slogan.

A'yup, for my first ever rifle side match, yes!

First stage up was originally a pistol stage earlier in the day.

So the targets were way up close.

If it hadn't been for the foot fault line defining the shooting box, they would have almost been within bayoneting range.

(well, if I coulda taken about 3 to 6 steps closer to the targets depending on where I stood.)

So, I just kept the caps on the scope closed and canted the gun over to the side (all gangsta like, wink wink).

Yes, I got some weird looks from the peanut gallery.

It was 10 paper targets, 20 rounds, with the whole stage worth 100 points.

The fastest tactical guy (one scope or optic only) shot it 13.65 seconds and earned 76 points for a 5.5678 HF.

I shot it with my canted irons in 14.25 seconds, earned 72 points for a HF of 5.0526.

The highest HF for "tactical" was a 6.2094.

Hence, my post confirming what Kurt Miller has been saying all along: "Up close, nothing is faster than irons."

I went on to shoot the other 2 stages using the scope. Hey, this is my first time out. I might as well experiment with what I have.

Like I said previously, at 4 power, I got a real good look at the pasters and the perfs.

So maybe next time, I'll just shoot the whole thing with irons. I might be taking the scope off soon anyways, just so I can experiment with irons some more.

[ken hebert]

Hosing a stage with a rifle ROCKS!!!

Of course, hosing a stage with anything rocks....

Edited March 19, 2008 by ken hebert

[mshotwell]

I have question about your Yankee Hill mount. Would like to mount some kind of red dot to the side of my rifle.(not an AR).

Could or can it fit under a rifle scope it the rings are high enough? My scopes sets about .300 above the rail between the rings. Thanks

[Chills1994]

I think "they" actually make a special ring that will go around your scope so you can mount a Jpoint or Dokter to for that.

I haven't had a chance to fondle a Jpoint or a Dokter, so I couldn't telly if they could mount to the YHM angled pieces or not.

I was kinda hinting at that in this thread here:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...c=49862&hl=

Edited March 20, 2008 by Chills1994

[BigDave]

Well, don't this beat all? http://www.dueckdefense.com/about-dueck-defense.asp

[carlosa]

Well, don't this beat all? http://www.dueckdefense.com/about-dueck-defense.asp

I saw thus a few months back..

They look preaty sweet.

Are you going to get them?

[BigDave]

Well, don't this beat all? http://www.dueckdefense.com/about-dueck-defense.asp

I saw thus a few months back..

They look preaty sweet.

Are you going to get them?

No

[carbon9]

Or this......

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102945

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112191