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What's The Call?


Sam38

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Here's the situation: Competitor is shooting two speed shoots one after the other. Competitior finishes first speed shoots, locks his gun in the holster and, while remaining 'hot' walks, under the supervision of the RO, to the next stage. The competitor assumes the ready position and tries to draw his gun. But it's a no go as the gun is still locked in holster. Competitor stops* and asks for a reshoot as he (actually his equipment) was not in the ready position.

Whats the call, reshoot granted or not granted?

* Competitor is not the brightest bulb on the tree. You should never stop yourself, other than for a safety violation.

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I would think that if the RO asked "are you ready?" and the guy did not say no, the timer keeps running! No way it is a reshoot. AFAIK, a race holster "wedgie" in not grounds for a reshoot. I have some personal experience in this area :( .

Later,

Chuck

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If the shooter says yes to the question "are you ready?" then no reshoot. It is not considered an equipment failure. The race holster performed exactly as it should. It retained the gun.

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New shooter? Old Shooter, maybe experiencing a bit of fade?

At a major, definatetly "Sorry, score what there is" At a club match, rules aside, one has to consider the above possibilities. Since it is a second start and not a reload problem or some other after the start situatin, afterall he could not draw his gun. I would probably restart him.

This has happened to me, no excuse, the world's greatest "Atomic Wedgie" I was not resarted and did not even think to request one, It was my own brain fade on a 90 degree day after a 4 hour drive to the match.

So, Is a restart supported by the rules? No, it is not. And as the rules currently stand, the RO could not even tell the shooter that his holster was locked had he noticied it.

In truth, it is one of those things that we would do on a case by case basis, contrary to the rules.

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Nor are multiple "hot" stages supported by the rule book. (Heck, even multiple strings aren't covered well.)

(This question has been asked in the past. Been a while though...I don't know if I could fine the old thread with a search or not.)

...asks for a reshoot as he (actually his equipment) was not in the ready position.

Whats the call, reshoot granted or not granted?.

The shooters holster being locked or unlocked doesn't have anything to do with the "ready position" does it?

If the shooter says yes to the question "are you ready?" then no reshoot.

Just nit-picking here...but no response is required for the RO to continue after "R-U-Ready". Only a negative response to that question will stop the count down, correct?

At a major, definatetly "Sorry, score what there is" At a club match, rules aside, one has to consider the above possibilities. Since it is a second start and not a reload problem or some other after the start situatin, afterall he could not draw his gun. I would probably restart him.

What does any of that matter? Treat them all the same. (Unless they aren't shooting for score...coach-thru.)

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What does any of that matter? Treat them all the same. (Unless they aren't shooting for score...coach-thru.)

I agree in principle, however, there are certain shooters that are either very new or perhaps on the other side. They are't going to win the match or their class, assuming that they have a classification. (more on that point later) We score them in large part because they are new and trying or they have given for years and now maybe we can give some back, including a little dignity. We give them a little help.

Now I said more about classification, a new shooter is generally an unclassifed shooter, an experianced shooter that is viying for class or division is not going to get the boost. It is a case of no harm, no foul. Sort of they may be shooting for score, but not for place as it were.

Jim

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"Hot" walks are not covered in the rules.
Maybe it's my personal interpretation, but my read of 5.7.4 is that "hot" walks are prohibited (unless I am reading too much into the "Under no circumstances" verbiage). 10.5.13 might prevent the competitor from receiving a Match DQ, however, I am having difficulty envisioning a reasonable circumstance where completing a stage without “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” is an acceptable practice.
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Buncha hot walks between stages on the same berm at the WS, so I'm guessing it's legal within the rules.

But.. the locked condition of the shooters' holster has nothing to do with complying with the start position, unless it specified "in unlocked holster" so no reshoot. One stage at the WS I started with the holster locked on purpose, the rest not.

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At a major, definatetly "Sorry, score what there is" At a club match, rules aside, one has to consider the above possibilities. Since it is a second start and not a reload problem or some other after the start situatin, afterall he could not draw his gun. I would probably restart him.

What does any of that matter? Treat them all the same. (Unless they aren't shooting for score...coach-thru.)

seriously? even if it was a new shooter you wouldnt restart him or her?

big match...no restart. local match...restart (with an explanation of the rules).

how about this flex: on stage 2 of your local match you notice that a new shooter (shooting production) has a plug in his glock backstrap. do you move him to open?

area 6 had a hot walk this year. both stages were table starts though so no chance locked holster problems.

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We "hot-walked" shooters on stages 3 & 4 and again on 5 & 6 at the Summer Blast. We've done it every year but the first. No complaints, no problems. Several "Ghost" wedgies, but no other problems and no reshoots.

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how about this flex: on stage 2 of your local match you notice that a new shooter (shooting production) has a plug in his glock backstrap. do you move him to open?

You'd be surprised at the stuff I don't notice at matches. ;)

I was just making the point (and it is one that needs to be made..often) that local matches and major matches all run under the same set of rules.

Match Directors and RO's need to be careful not to get caught on the slippery-slope...

I really do think we ought to use the "coach through" option/idea more often. I'd like to see this supported by EZ Win Score...allowing the shooter to see their scores, but not earn any standing (match points) in the competition.

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This thread is a prime example of why the rules should be changed. Not because the shooter tried to draw a locked gun but because he was walking between courses of fire with a loaded gun. My RO class stated that the COF started with LMR and ended with RIC so if RIC is not issued & the competitor drops his gun moving to the new location, he/she would be given a match DQ, 10.5.3. Irregardless of what was done at the World Shoot is there any reason why USPSA couldn't add a little safety to our rules. For that matter maybe IPSC needs to look at including this into their rules first.

I have run several classifiers that have multiples strings where the shooter moves closer for each string & have been directed to run them hot. In this case I have the shooter place their hand on the gun during movement. If they try to start with a locked gun that is their problem because I gave them total control of their gun during movement. What I don't like are the classifiers that require scoring between strings when the shooter has a loaded gun in the holster with their hands clear. I have always been taught that no one goes forward of a shooting line until all guns are clear. So I will not RO this type of COF.

/end soapbox rant

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It's only handled a little better in the IPSC rules;

IPSC issued a ruling that 8.3.5.1 (dealing with multiple strings) covers multiple stages in one berm as well, but it's not very clear. 8.3.7.3 defines the end of the COF as holstering the gun, but it's in the middle of the 'UL&SC' section. They don't issue RIC until both stages are completed.

I don't have a big problem with it since it's pretty much the same as multiple strings. Having people downrange in the meantime isn't really a good idea though it's been used successfully for many years.

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Another related topic is the discouragement of hot sight pictures. It has always been my practice to not play with a loaded gun until the buzzer goes off.

If you are hot walked, you should be given the opportunity to to take a hot sight picture, and possibly a hot practice draw (at the shooters peril), to insure that your "equipment" is ready to go.

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area 6 had a hot walk this year. both stages were table starts though so no chance locked holster problems.
I was the RO on that stage on Friday and we didn't move ya hot. I know the Sat/Sun crew did, but IMHO it's just asking for situations like this that have no clear cut answer. When I'm Queen of the Range, I actually try to make sure the shooters aren't in a position to have unfair happenings!
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When I'm Queen of the Range, I actually try to make sure the shooters aren't in a position to have unfair happenings!

I'm with Kath ... whenever you take a shooter out of their customary LAMR situation you create the opportunities for these mistakes.

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In truth, it is one of those things that we would do on a case by case basis, contrary to the rules.

[raised eyebrow mode]

Wow.

[/raised eyebrow mode]

With all due respect, Jim, this just makes me uncomfortable regardless of context.

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Back to the original question, if they asked for a reshoot, I would reply, "The clock is running." If they didn't start shooting, I would say, "If you are finish, unload show clear."

Some lessons aren't learned unless you have the consequences. They seem to sink in better that way.

I would let them reshoot the string, "for fun" but zero the stage for the match score.

I would not call a holster being locked, "not in the ready position." You don't give reshoots for people not turning on their dots do you? That is up to the competitor.

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In truth, it is one of those things that we would do on a case by case basis, contrary to the rules.

[raised eyebrow mode]

Wow.

[/raised eyebrow mode]

With all due respect, Jim, this just makes me uncomfortable regardless of context.

I think you need to read my original post to put this in context. What I am saying is that a NEW SHOOTER, or perhaps a, shall we say, elder shooter, eihter of whom are no threat to the class or divison winners, may get a little additinal coaching or assistance where a fully competent top of his game shooter would not. It hurts no one, it gives the new guy a boost, teaches him while he has an enjoyable day, keeps him in the sport and generally he will bring out more people. The elder shooter deserves our respect. I tend to think of it in terms of how I'd have like someone to assist my father had he reached that point in life, or maybe how I might appreciate not being told I am too old to play when I am still safe, jus t alittle off my game at say 80 years old. Many of the elder group have given all their lives. If I can't give them a quiet assist, I am not worthy of carrying on.

That said, If they are unsafe, then we are talking a different story. Usually, what I see is a guy that wants to walk through a stage, stops to shoot each target. Reloads while standing still, may be a bit shakey. He is still here, still playing the game to his level and having fun. Why not let him have his dignity. Where is the loss?

I had a father son group at a steel match earlier this year. The father was in his early 80's, he had carried a 1911 all his life, but was now on that sad down hill side of life. I assisted him and quietly coached him through the couses. When we were done, his son came over to me and thanked me for allowing his father to shoot the match with his dignity intact.

The elder man may never return, he may not even be around next year (who amongst us can say for certain if we will), but I am reasonably certain that his son will return to our club and that he will tell others of how well the shooting community treated his father that day.

This is what I mean by applying all of this on a case by case basis. If you show up with your C or higher card, for that matter, your D card, you are not going to get the boost. It is reserved for the people at both ends ot their shooting careers. I only hope that when I am on the line some day that someone will tap me on the shoulder or what ever and let me know I should fully insert my magazine, rather than stand there and laugh at a 80 year old man trying to keep his spirts up. Like wise I would hope that when you see a newbie, you'd give hime a little advice, maybe a hint or two that some would consider coaching so that rather than going away and never returning, he/she comes back and spends a lifetime with us.

Jim

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In truth, it is one of those things that we would do on a case by case basis, contrary to the rules.

[raised eyebrow mode]

Wow.

[/raised eyebrow mode]

With all due respect, Jim, this just makes me uncomfortable regardless of context.

I think you need to read my original post to put this in context. What I am saying is that a NEW SHOOTER, or perhaps a, shall we say, elder shooter, eihter of whom are no threat to the class or divison winners, may get a little additinal coaching or assistance where a fully competent top of his game shooter would not. It hurts no one, it gives the new guy a boost, teaches him while he has an enjoyable day, keeps him in the sport and generally he will bring out more people. The elder shooter deserves our respect. I tend to think of it in terms of how I'd have like someone to assist my father had he reached that point in life, or maybe how I might appreciate not being told I am too old to play when I am still safe, jus t alittle off my game at say 80 years old. Many of the elder group have given all their lives. If I can't give them a quiet assist, I am not worthy of carrying on.

That said, If they are unsafe, then we are talking a different story. Usually, what I see is a guy that wants to walk through a stage, stops to shoot each target. Reloads while standing still, may be a bit shakey. He is still here, still playing the game to his level and having fun. Why not let him have his dignity. Where is the loss?

I had a father son group at a steel match earlier this year. The father was in his early 80's, he had carried a 1911 all his life, but was now on that sad down hill side of life. I assisted him and quietly coached him through the couses. When we were done, his son came over to me and thanked me for allowing his father to shoot the match with his dignity intact.

The elder man may never return, he may not even be around next year (who amongst us can say for certain if we will), but I am reasonably certain that his son will return to our club and that he will tell others of how well the shooting community treated his father that day.

This is what I mean by applying all of this on a case by case basis. If you show up with your C or higher card, for that matter, your D card, you are not going to get the boost. It is reserved for the people at both ends ot their shooting careers. I only hope that when I am on the line some day that someone will tap me on the shoulder or what ever and let me know I should fully insert my magazine, rather than stand there and laugh at a 80 year old man trying to keep his spirts up. Like wise I would hope that when you see a newbie, you'd give hime a little advice, maybe a hint or two that some would consider coaching so that rather than going away and never returning, he/she comes back and spends a lifetime with us.

Jim

Sometimes he can irritate the crap out of many of us ---- but the above reminds me again of why I'm proud to count Jim among my friends! Nice job at the steel match ---- and if you forget to seat your magazine when you're 80, you can be sure I'll be making fun of you...... :P:P

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Jim,

OK, OK. You make a good argument and your heart is in the right place. My concern is the "gray area" between our 80 year old shooter (new shooter, junior shooter, etc.) for whom a break may be CLEARLY warranted and dealing with the "less clear" example. It can be a tough call on a "case by case" basis. I'm not saying giving a re-shoot is inappropriate (or not inappropriate), it just introduces a degree of subjectivity that makes me uncomfortable.

David

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