Possibility Of Modification Tightening In Uspsa Production

[Sam38]

If it's an equipment race, prove it. Name a solitary instance of where the gun won.

Rather than suggesting ..... much wordage deleted ............

I still think the correct path is to allow IPSC Production and USPSA Production to coexist for a year or two and see what the market gravitates to. I'd rather see any changes be made as a result of market acceptance rather than as an imposition upon it...if ya knowwhatImean.

[/Don't have a horse in this race, but am here blabbing about it anyway MODE]

I agree with Eric on this one. And when USPSA (and our local clubs) starts offering IPSC Rules matches I'll be shooting a lot in the Production Division.

Sam Spiteri

[Jim Norman]

Interesting Sam,

If we stargt running under IPSC rules, I will probably stop shooting Production. I have at least 4 Production legal guns, USPSA legal and all in .40 cal. Very unlikely that I would invest all over again in IPSC competitive guns.

Run them side by side, period. Your club wants to run IPSC rules, go ahead. Our club will likely run under USPSA rules. It is what our customer base wants.

Jim

[vluc]

Who will be checking production pistols to make sure they are IPSC-legal when those side by side matches are run?

Edited August 30, 2006 by vluc

[Kevin Kline]

I dont want to be that close to IDPA SSP (with changing what holsters are allowed from year to year and changing rules on a whim, yearly), but I dont think we should have race holsters and hi cap mags like IPSC Prod either.

I think we could clarify a few things and be done, but lets not tighten things to the point of IDPA. At our local club, we've had lots of new Prod shooters in the last 1-2 years come from IDPA b/c of the way that sport is conducted. Lets not drift that way and drive them back to IDPA.

Kevin - The point some of us are trying to make is that some of us don't want to have the rules so sport-specific that they would prevent shooters in one sport from using the same equipment in both sports. Current rules in the two sports permit shooters to use the same equipment, with a few exceptions, in Production/SSP and SS/CDP or ESP (depending on caliber). This ability to shoot both sports ends up with alot of shooters being like me - IDPA #A01966 and USPSA # A-51222. Both/and is way better than either/or. Both sports benefit from the cross-fertilization.

FWIW, the holster rules have changed ONCE since IDPA began in '96. They went from a huge list of holsters (to which new ones were added, not subtracted) to criteria...kinda like you see in the USPSA rulebook.

Chuck,

Sorry, I gotta disagree. I dont think your view (keeping USPSA Prod and IDPA SSP somewhat similiar so guys can shoot both) is what the large majority of people posting on this thread are commenting about or interested in. I think this thread is dealing with USPSA and/or BOD might be looking into tighening the rules to keep Production from turning into an equipment race like some of the other divisions. But at the same time not turning Prod upside down as far as what is allowed and has been and making shooters purchase/change guns.

I think the IDPA issue you commented on is at the back of this train and everything USPSA needs for the division comes first. The IDPA issue is not one the majority is commenting.

[Jim Norman]

Who will be checking production pistols to make sure they are IPSC-legal when those side by side matches are run?

I am not sure that we'll see true side-by-side matches where the IPSC and corresponding USPSA divisions are run at the same time and place. I think what is more likely is that some clubs will elect to hold an IPSC rules match while others elect to hold USPSA rules matches.

I can't see trying to run:

IPSC Open

IPSC Standard

IPSC Modified

IPSC Revolver

IPSC Production

USPSA Open

USPSA Limited

USPSA Limited-10

USPSA Production

USPSA Revolver

USPSA Single Stack

all at the same match. I don't have all the hair I used to at this point and I'd like to keep what I have left a few more years!

Jim

[Loves2Shoot]

As long aas you keep score and have equiptment, there will be those that will think it is an equiptment race. I think in reality it is seldom ever the equiptment that wins, but the person that has prepare and executed their the best. You will always have the perception, no matter how false it may be. If you have solid acurate equpitment you will go as far as you are willing to work for IMO.

Edited August 30, 2006 by Loves2Shoot

[vluc]

Who will be checking production pistols to make sure they are IPSC-legal when those side by side matches are run?

I am not sure that we'll see true side-by-side matches where the IPSC and corresponding USPSA divisions are run at the same time and place. I think what is more likely is that some clubs will elect to hold an IPSC rules match while others elect to hold USPSA rules matches.

I can't see trying to run:

IPSC Open

IPSC Standard

IPSC Modified

IPSC Revolver

IPSC Production

USPSA Open

USPSA Limited

USPSA Limited-10

USPSA Production

USPSA Revolver

USPSA Single Stack

all at the same match. I don't have all the hair I used to at this point and I'd like to keep what I have left a few more years!

Jim

My mistake, I should have clarified that, thanks! Interested to see what would happen when 20-30 production people show up to shoot an IPSC match, have their equipment checked, and find they can't shoot!

[Flexmoney]

Wouldn't they get bumped to Open?

[GeorgeInNePa]

Wouldn't they get bumped to Open?

Not if the check is done before the match. Then they would have the option of changing their equipment or moving to a different division.

But if it's done during the match, well then... Open it is!

[RIIID]

Just because you run an IPSC rules match you will start doing equipment checks for Production? What have you been doing for the last six years running under USPSA rules?

If the rules were enforced from day one in Production, we wouldn't have a six page thread about how to correct Production. It would have happened on day two. As long as there is no enforcement people will push the limit on poorly written rules.

Rich

[GeorgeInNePa]

Just because you run an IPSC rules match you will start doing equipment checks for Production? What have you been doing for the last six years running under USPSA rules?

If the rules were enforced from day one in Production, we wouldn't have a six page thread about how to correct Production. It would have happened on day two. As long as there is no enforcement people will push the limit on poorly written rules.

Rich

What exactly would you have us check for in USPSA Production, Rich?

It's legal to machine the slide for sights, it's legal to have a trigger job to as low as your firearm can go and still function. These things aren't legal in IPSC.

Grip tape is legal on the grip, if the RO sees it on the slide you're in trouble. This is IPSC and USPSA legal.

We all know what the approved guns are. We can all count to 10.

Tell us what we should be looking for, under the rules we have right now. Everyone knows what a legal holster is and where it's supposed to go.

[oddjob]

As a new Production shooter I would like the rules left alone. I bought my equipment and had my guns modified according to the rules (fixed sights though). After years of the current rules it would be awful to force people to spend more money on their equipment. It would also drive people away. I like the 10 rd rule because it allows a more level field. I live in California, so to attract new shooters its gotta be Production, Single Stack or L-10. From what I've seen Production brings in the new blood. I have never heard newer Production shooters complain about the guns. They tend to look at the holsters, belt & pouches and location of the equipment rather than the guns.

People will always push the rules to the limit (no matter what the sport). In my opinion its simply too late.

[DaG]

I did not know that grip tape on the slide in prod. was not legal. What rule is this under? TIA.....

DaG

[RIIID]

George,

Since you asked, it's very simple get your rule book(green), a copy of all the rulings posted on the USPSA site, all of the rulings made in the Front Sight mag., a copy of all of the manufactors catalogs, all of the catalogs for holsters, belts, and mag. holders, all of the e-mails John has sent out to individuals for clarification, and a certified scale.

Then you inspect every piece of equipment that a shooter is using to see if it conforms to the rules and chrono the ammo.

I don't see how this can be made easier to do.

Rich

[GeorgeInNePa]

George,

Since you asked, it's very simple get your rule book(green), a copy of all the rulings posted on the USPSA site, all of the rulings made in the Front Sight mag., a copy of all of the manufactors catalogs, all of the catalogs for holsters, belts, and mag. holders, all of the e-mails John has sent out to individuals for clarification, and a certified scale.

Then you inspect every piece of equipment that a shooter is using to see if it conforms to the rules and chrono the ammo.

I don't see how this can be made easier to do.

Rich

What will all that accomplish?

Why would we need catalogs for holsters and belts and mag pouches? What is this, IDPA? The rules say nothing about them except for where they are to be placed and that the holster must be "Not of the race type". That's it.

I know the rulebook and the NROI rulings and remember most of John's Front Sight comments.

Chrono and scale might not be a bad idea.

[RIIID]

George,

You must have missed a ruling on holsters and mag holders, they can't be altered from factory condition. A couple of examples, cutting down or rounding off mag holders and holsters. I believe it was in Front Sight.

A little hint, no one has the knowledge to properly enforce the rules as written, not even John A. There is so many varieties of makes and models of equipment used(past and present) in Production that it is impossible to gather it together and make it usable at all levels of matches.

USPSA had a great idea in starting Production but, didn't give it the support it needed from the start. I guess they figured everybody would play fair using the honor system. Production has out grown the current set of rules a long time ago. I want to see Production to keep growing to the point it will match or overtake the numbers in Limited and Open. The limits of of the rules have been strecthed, twisted, and broken in every aspect. The direction of Production needs to set and a set of rules to keep it going in that direction. Yes, Production is working as is but it can be improved upon. The only questions are, What is Production? and How much it will cost the shooters who compete in it with the changes that have to be made?

Rich

[Vlad]

George,

You must have missed a ruling on holsters and mag holders, they can't be altered from factory condition. A couple of examples, cutting down or rounding off mag holders and holsters. I believe it was in Front Sight.

Say what? How would one enforce that? If there is not approved holster list, that means I can make my own from scratch as long it is of "non race type". I just happen to make mine from the "raw" materials of a Bladetech DOH and lets say I round off some corners and slick up the release. I'll even sell it as the Vlad Super Improved Dropped and Offset and Rounded and Slicked Holster. How can that be against the rules? What if I incorporate?

While we are at it, how would anyone prove that a holster was modified without a complete catalog of every manufacturer from every year? Heck I've seen same brand holsters, for the same gun model, sold during the same year which clearly used different molds. I can't imagine how such a ruling be justified.

[ima45dv8]

I guess they figured everybody would play fair using the honor system.

An antiquated idea perhaps, but still an enviable concept which seems to be ~90% effective in our sport.

Just look at all the trouble that other 10% caused.

[Chris Keen]

I'll even sell it as the Vlad Super Improved Dropped and Offset and Rounded and Slicked Holster.

LMAO :P

[MarkS_A18138]

Damn just when everything was going good in prod! 8 new production shooters in our club this year! Time to sell my new production ready xd9 from Richard! NOT !!!!!!!!!

Edited September 1, 2006 by MarkS_A18138

[Flexmoney]

You must have missed a ruling on holsters and mag holders, they can't be altered from factory condition. A couple of examples, cutting down or rounding off mag holders and holsters. I believe it was in Front Sight.

Rich, there are no "rulings" posted in Front Sight. Other than that...

You make some great points in your last post.

[Kevin Kline]

I havent seen any rulings in Front Sight either on mag pouches or holsters and what can be done to them, where's that at???

On a sidenote to Rich's post about Prod overtaking Lim and Open. Did anyone check the number of shooters at Area 5 in each division. Limited had the most and Prod beat out Open for most amount of shooter, behind Limited. I like that a lot!!

[Nik Habicht]

Say what? How would one enforce that? If there is not approved holster list, that means I can make my own from scratch as long it is of "non race type". I just happen to make mine from the "raw" materials of a Bladetech DOH and lets say I round off some corners and slick up the release. I'll even sell it as the Vlad Super Improved Dropped and Offset and Rounded and Slicked Holster. How can that be against the rules? What if I incorporate?

Let me know when you want to set up shop ---- I need at least one for the G34.....

[RIIID]

March/April 2004, Inside NROI on page four.

Flex,

You mean if John A. says something is illegal in Front Sight it doesn't count as a ruling/clarification so we don't have to abide to it?

Rich

[Vlad]

Any chance someone has a typed up version of that ruling or a picture or something? I have no idea where that FS issue is in my house and I don't see it on the NROI rulings page on USPSA.org.

Btw, is that page to be taken as bible? If not whats the point, if yes are those all the official rulings?