Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

What Defines A Full Open Pistol And What Would You Call This?


half inch groups

Recommended Posts

obviously I'm a total noob so please bare with me! :huh: As I mentioned before, I am just getting my feet wet shooting steel and learning more about ipsc. I came across this "factory" springfield custom shop 10th aniversary steel challenge commemorative pistol. it is #6 of what was supposed to be 500 limited editions. I heard it was more like #6 of 10 from the soon to be previous owner. Aside from a Cmore and a few other mods, the gun is compensated, trigger and barrel have been "worked" it has a dual ambi safety and an enlarged mag release, as well as bomar sites and beveled magwell. The gun is unfired and is almost 30 years old now. I'm sure it could use a wider well and since I'm a lefty, I probably need to move the mag release to the other side. I will probably also parkerize the top slide to reduce glare as well. is this a stocker, or open? I'm a little confused because it's factory compensated, and been through the springfeild custom shop before it left the factory. Any help would be mucho appreciated! thank you! heres some pics:

post-8838-1155971471.jpg

post-8838-1155971531.jpg

post-8838-1155971554.jpg

post-8838-1155971584.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its an open gun, factory or not it has a comp, but it is not competive, either in IPSC or Steel. Its pretty but time has passed it by. That is a perfect example of a early open gun(really when that gun was the hot setup there was no open or limited, there was just shootin). I believe guns should be shot, but I might make an exception for that one. Please dont go changeing or hacking on that gun, It should stay just as it is for another 30 years. Just the way I feel but I bet a lot of folks will agree with me.------Larry

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its an open gun, factory or not it has a comp, but it is not competive, either in IPSC or Steel. Its pretty but time has passed it by. That is a perfect example of a early open gun(really when that gun was the hot setup there was no open or limited, there was just shootin). I believe guns should be shot, but I might make an exception for that one. Please dont go changeing or hacking on that gun, It should stay just as it is for another 30 years. Just the way I feel but I bet a lot of folks will agree with me.------Larry

Funny you mention not to shoot it. the seller says there's no real significant value to it as a commemorative pistol as I too asked about the shootability vs. collectability. He said to Shoot it. I was building an open kimber custom II, and I just recently purchased another 80's SA trophy match for $500 and was going to start working on it when I found this pistola with most of the modifications I was looking to do to the trophy match for about $175 more w all the bells and whistles except the few things I mentioned. What is so out dated about it? I understand it's no STI or Brazo, but I would figure it would take very little work to get it up to snuff. I have access to a full CNC shop and was thinking about "hacking" on another SA slide to lower the port, and possibly lightening/tightening of the slide as the original slide is so pretty. I too thought is was pretty, but hard chrome isn't for me. I'm trying to build a shooter on a limited budget and thought I was really 3/4's there for under $700 bucks.. So should I sit there and look at it, and just build the trophy match, or should I update this beauty and enjoy it? I too think guns are for shooting. I'm stuck with it as of tomorrow, so I sure would like any more advice on what you guys might do if you were in my shoes. this will be my 4th full size 1911, as I also own a kimber supermatch II stock to the bone and it's staying that way! I don't know which I enjoy more, building em or shooting em. I'm not a competitive guy, but I shoot pretty well according to most range officers and wanted to get into shooting steel and ipsc after blasting at the plates. Thank you for responding. I need as much guidance as I can get as a noob when it comes to raceguns.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That gun would get you "stuck" into Open division...with guns that are far more capable and suited to the task.

Open Single-stacks can be competitive in Steel Challenge, but most go with a variant of the 38 Super.

You don't want a single-stack for IPSC/USPSA Open division.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That gun would get you "stuck" into Open division...with guns that are far more capable and suited to the task.

Open Single-stacks can be competitive in Steel Challenge, but most go with a variant of the 38 Super.

You don't want a single-stack for IPSC/USPSA Open division.

No single stackers for ipsc/uspsa eh? is this because of round capacity? And I take it .45 is too much recoil to line up your shots accurately fast enough for steel? or is a power point /velocity thing? I'm such a noob! I'm definately more interested in shooting the SC then anything else. Why not a .45? is that old school?

I'll be honest. I love my .45 ACP! As I mentioned I own 4 1911's, I imagine there's got to be .38 super conversion kits for either my custom II or trophy match... is there? never even did the research as I never was really interested in .38 s. I just have to figure w all the technology these days it couldnt need much more than a replacement barrel, bushing,firing pin, extractor, and magazine to convert. I know wer'e getting on to a different subject. Why would I be stuck in the open class? couldnt I just change the barrel to a standard 5" and change the bushing out? oh wait... the front site is on the comp! I'm starting to see your point lol! well would you look at it or shoot it? is it collectable? If I want to go to my local indoor range and try for "half inch groups" w it. I imagine the 10th Anniversary pistol will be accurate and recover quickly.. please advise me if I'm just completely off, as I feel like a tard right now trying to build functional yet purdy shooters. :unsure: .. just wonder if it will be as accurate/smoothe as my super match II.. Cant a guy with an old schwinn stingray still beat a guy on a $7000 road bike if he's good enough? lol!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That gun would get you "stuck" into Open division...with guns that are far more capable and suited to the task.

Open Single-stacks can be competitive in Steel Challenge, but most go with a variant of the 38 Super.

You don't want a single-stack for IPSC/USPSA Open division.

No single stackers for ipsc/uspsa eh? is this because of round capacity? And I take it .45 is too much recoil to line up your shots accurately fast enough for steel? or is a power point /velocity thing? I'm such a noob! I'm definately more interested in shooting the SC then anything else. Why not a .45? is that old school?

I'll be honest. I love my .45 ACP! As I mentioned I own 4 1911's, I imagine there's got to be .38 super conversion kits for either my custom II or trophy match... is there? never even did the research as I never was really interested in .38 s. I just have to figure w all the technology these days it couldnt need much more than a replacement barrel, bushing,firing pin, extractor, and magazine to convert. I know wer'e getting on to a different subject. Why would I be stuck in the open class? couldnt I just change the barrel to a standard 5" and change the bushing out? oh wait... the front site is on the comp! I'm starting to see your point lol! well would you look at it or shoot it? is it collectable? If I want to go to my local indoor range and try for "half inch groups" w it. I imagine the 10th Anniversary pistol will be accurate and recover quickly.. please advise me if I'm just completely off, as I feel like a tard right now trying to build functional yet purdy shooters. :unsure: .. just wonder if it will be as accurate/smoothe as my super match II.. Cant a guy with an old schwinn stingray still beat a guy on a $7000 road bike if he's good enough? lol!

Flex means in Open. That gun you're showing us was the hot set-up when I started shooting. Rob Leatham won alot of matches in the 80's with a gun just like that. A single-stack 45 acp with a comp was the thing to have. Back then, you were limited to the capacity within the frame of the gun. For 45's, it was 8+1.

Then, along comes the 38 super. Springfield and Colt mainly.... Lower recoil, quicker recovery, and 10+1 capacity. 1988 or 89...

After that, Chip McCormick came out with what we have today in the STI/SV platform. (1993) Springfield/EAA/Tangfolio also produced their versions of high capacity guns. The single-stack guns were soon resting in gun safes all across the country. :blink: Then, Caspian and Para-Ordnance joined the mix...and, with the 170 mm magazine rule in Open, the competitive platform is now a compensated 29 round 38 super (or variant), with a C-more Sight System (or variant).

How much can you spend? Depends on who you buy from. "Money buys speed" is an old racing phrase. 2, 3, 4 thousand. It's up to you. Then there's belt-gear, extra mags, etc...

If you are looking to shoot single-stack 45, Provisional Single-Stack is the place for you. The guns are eactly like the one in your photos without the comp. 8+1, no bull-barrles. .38 supers can enter at 10+1, but are scored minor. If there aren't many people in that division, then shoot Limited-10 with 10 round mags until the other division takes off at your club.

If you have a standard 45 that you shoot well, then shoot it. Go to the matches, make friends and observe. Learn the game. More experienced shooters are usually tripping over themselves to help out the new people. They may even have an extra rig they'll let you try out. You'll save a ton of money and be a smarter buyer 6 months from now if you do that. Just hide your wallet and shoot what you have...for now...;)

Welcome to USPSA!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

+1 on the Limited 10, or Single Stack class being the place to test drive your single stack .45s in USPSA/IPSC....... just bring one without a comp or scope or they will put you in Open.

About five 8 or 10 round mags, a good strong side belt holster, a few mag pouches, and you're ready to go.

If you are determined to shoot a scoped and/or comped Open gun, in IPSC you better bring a widebody hi-cap pistol or get left in the dust.

Now, having said that, bring what you have and come play anyway, comped or not, you'll do just as well more than likely either way at first til you learn the game..... then by that time you'll have a better idea of what equipment is currently in vogue. The whole idea is to have fun! ;)

Welcome to IPSC!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That gun would get you "stuck" into Open division...with guns that are far more capable and suited to the task.

Open Single-stacks can be competitive in Steel Challenge, but most go with a variant of the 38 Super.

You don't want a single-stack for IPSC/USPSA Open division.

No single stackers for ipsc/uspsa eh? is this because of round capacity? And I take it .45 is too much recoil to line up your shots accurately fast enough for steel? or is a power point /velocity thing? I'm such a noob! I'm definately more interested in shooting the SC then anything else. Why not a .45? is that old school?

I'll be honest. I love my .45 ACP! As I mentioned I own 4 1911's, I imagine there's got to be .38 super conversion kits for either my custom II or trophy match... is there? never even did the research as I never was really interested in .38 s. I just have to figure w all the technology these days it couldnt need much more than a replacement barrel, bushing,firing pin, extractor, and magazine to convert. I know wer'e getting on to a different subject. Why would I be stuck in the open class? couldnt I just change the barrel to a standard 5" and change the bushing out? oh wait... the front site is on the comp! I'm starting to see your point lol! well would you look at it or shoot it? is it collectable? If I want to go to my local indoor range and try for "half inch groups" w it. I imagine the 10th Anniversary pistol will be accurate and recover quickly.. please advise me if I'm just completely off, as I feel like a tard right now trying to build functional yet purdy shooters. :unsure: .. just wonder if it will be as accurate/smoothe as my super match II.. Cant a guy with an old schwinn stingray still beat a guy on a $7000 road bike if he's good enough? lol!

Flex means in Open. That gun your showing us was the hot set-up when I started shooting. Rob Leatham won alot of matches in the 80's with a gun just like that. A single-stack 45 acp with a comp was the thing to have. Back then, you were limited to the capacity witin the frame of the gun. For 45's, it was 8+1.

Then, along comes the 38 super. Springfield and Colt mainly.... Lower recoil, quicker recovery, and 10+1 capacity. 1988 or 89...

After that, Chip McCormick came out with what we have today in the STI/SV platform. (1993) Springfield/EAA/Tangfolio also produced their versions of high capacity guns. The single-stack guns were soon resting in gun safes all across the country. :blink: Then, Caspian and Para-Ordnance joined the mix...and, with the 170 mm magazine rule in Open, the competitive platform is now a compensated 29 round 38 super (or variant), with a C-more Sight System (or variant).

How much can you spend? Depends on who you buy from. "Money buys speed" is an old racing phrase. 2, 3, 4 thousand. It's up to you. Then there's belt-gear, extra mags, etc...

If you are looking to shoot single-stack 45, Provisional Single-Stack is the place for you. The guns are eactly like the one in your photos without the comp. 8+1, no bull-barrles. .38 supers can enter at 10+1, but are scored minor. If there aren't many people in that division, then shoot Limited-10 with 10 round mags until the other division takes off at your club.

If you have a standard 45 that you shoot well, then shoot it. Go to the matches, make friends and observe. Learn the game. More experienced shooters are usually tripping over themselves to help out the new people. They may even have an extra rig they'll let you try out. You'll save a ton of money and be a smarter buyer 6 months from now if you do that. Just hide your wallet and shoot what you have...for now...;)

Black sabbath thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions. I own 2 kimbers and 2 SA's. I havent shot either SA as their both DROSing, but I have both a custom II stock w the exception of a clark beveled well, and I just got a Super match II about 6 months ago... I dont know which I shoot better. I have 12000 rds through my custom, but only about 1000 through the supermatch. Lately I been shooting a lot of my USP expert .40 and absolutely loving it! I'm just not a double action guy when it comes to the trigger. I tend to short shoot sometimes w it when I think I'm baqrely on it.. they just don't shoot like a s/a 1911. I dont really want to do anything to the .40. thats why I wanted to hack on a 1911!.. til I found this ol gun... anyway I really want to shoot Steel Challenge. I saw the courses and I think I found my game. I'm a lazy bastard that likes to shoot fast and far, as accurately as I can, and not have a ton of rules or stuff to remember as my memory is shorter than my temper. I'm not into running around doing the whole practical shooting dog and pony show. no offense to those who are. I respect it, Its just not for me.. yet!

Welcome to USPSA!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

sfinney thanks for the advice. I have a couple of Chip 8's & 10 rounders. I'm going to the steel challenge this weekend to watch and learn before I shoot it. I just bought a safariland 012 and belt w a few mag holders online. should be here in a few weeks, til then I'll continue to read and ask questions. thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not 30 years old....probably more like 16. The Steel Challenge started in 1980 and so '90 would be the 10th. Also, that's about when SA started putting that double chambered comp on their guns. Comp guns didn't exist in 1976.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not 30 years old....probably more like 16. The Steel Challenge started in 1980 and so '90 would be the 10th. Also, that's about when SA started putting that double chambered comp on their guns. Comp guns didn't exist in 1976.

I would ad that the first actual compensator was devolped earlier than that Brian. James E. Clark Sr. invented the threaded cone-shaped sleeve with a barrel weight in 1971 - A precursor to modern cone compensators. The weight compensated for recoil, thus making it the first real compensator for the 1911.

Ported comps came later.

And, you're right about that gun being 30 years old. It can't be; they just didn't exist in that configuration yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A two port half profile comp is about late 82 or 83 vintage...

Again not competitive at this time.......but a great shooting .45...soft and lots of fun...if you want to shoot SS, then you can rebarrel it and go to town...if you want to shoot anything else, need wide body and hicap mags...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not 30 years old....probably more like 16. The Steel Challenge started in 1980 and so '90 would be the 10th. Also, that's about when SA started putting that double chambered comp on their guns. Comp guns didn't exist in 1976.

I would ad that the first actual compensator was devolped earlier than that Brian. James E. Clark Sr. invented the threaded cone-shaped sleeve with a barrel weight in 1971 - A precursor to modern cone compensators. The weight compensated for recoil, thus making it the first real compensator for the 1911.

Ported comps came later.

And, you're right about that gun being 30 years old. It can't be; they just didn't exist in that configuration yet.

Hey black sabbath, love your signature, I'm a huge Jerk fan! Any way the guy says he bought it in the late 1980's maybe its a 1990.. when did the steel challenge start? what year?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not 30 years old....probably more like 16. The Steel Challenge started in 1980 and so '90 would be the 10th. Also, that's about when SA started putting that double chambered comp on their guns. Comp guns didn't exist in 1976.

I would ad that the first actual compensator was devolped earlier than that Brian. James E. Clark Sr. invented the threaded cone-shaped sleeve with a barrel weight in 1971 - A precursor to modern cone compensators. The weight compensated for recoil, thus making it the first real compensator for the 1911.

Ported comps came later.

And, you're right about that gun being 30 years old. It can't be; they just didn't exist in that configuration yet.

Hey black sabbath, love your signature, I'm a huge Jerk fan! Any way the guy says he bought it in the late 1980's maybe its a 1990.. when did the steel challenge start? what year?

This off their homepage....

SCSA Home

Dubbed as "The Ultimate Display of Speed and Accuracy", the speed on steel format has proven to be the single most exciting shooting sport in almost two decades. It is not only extremely popular among shooters, but has proven to be the most media and spectator friendly of all Professional Competitions as well. Recent coverage of the Steel Challenge on The Outdoor Channel, clearly illustrated the point...."

http://www.steelchallenge.com/scsa.htm

Navin: Oh, my God! (Navin takes the book.) Thank you.

(he rips through the book, looking for something)

Navin: The new phone book's here! The new phone book's here!

Harry: Well I wish I could get so excited about nothing.

Navin: Nothing? Are you kidding?! Page 73, Johnson, Navin, R.! I'm somebody now! Millions of people look at this book every day! This is the kind of spontaneous publicity, you're name in print, that makes people. I'm in print! Things are going to start happening to me now..... :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey black sabbath, love your signature, I'm a huge Jerk fan! Any way the guy says he bought it in the late 1980's maybe its a 1990.. when did the steel challenge start? what year?

This off their homepage....

SCSA Home

Dubbed as "The Ultimate Display of Speed and Accuracy", the speed on steel format has proven to be the single most exciting shooting sport in almost two decades. It is not only extremely popular among shooters, but has proven to be the most media and spectator friendly of all Professional Competitions as well. Recent coverage of the Steel Challenge on The Outdoor Channel, clearly illustrated the point...."

http://www.steelchallenge.com/scsa.htm

Navin: Oh, my God! (Navin takes the book.) Thank you.

(he rips through the book, looking for something)

Navin: The new phone book's here! The new phone book's here!

Harry: Well I wish I could get so excited about nothing.

Navin: Nothing? Are you kidding?! Page 73, Johnson, Navin, R.! I'm somebody now! Millions of people look at this book every day! This is the kind of spontaneous publicity, you're name in print, that makes people. I'm in print! Things are going to start happening to me now..... :P

....JOHNSON, NAVIN R. SOUNDS LIKE A TYPICAL JACKASS!! oh I love that movie!

missed the challenge today.. bummer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That gun would be competitive at my club...with the Limited guns.

If you're going to shoot it in Open:

Put a Docter or JPoint on in place of the Bomar. Find a bullet caster who still makes the 152-155 grain SWC and experiment with getting them to 1090 fps. "The" load for the 152 grainers used to be 7.2 grains of WW 452AA in front of a Winchester or CCI LP primer but you can't get 452AA anymore. Might try Winchester Super Target or Hogdon Clays. If you are inclined to get a bit more recoil control, you might try swapping out the barrel and comp for a threaded bull barrel and a dual or triple port comp. You will have to get the slide modified for a reverse plug though. And if you do that might as well get a Dawson tooless tungsten guide rod to make it easy to take down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please keep the gun the same way it is!!!!!! You have a piece of history, period. I just got back from the Steel Challenge.

Take the Bomar off, and mount the dot of your choice....<Cmore>......... ;) , load up some Berrys 185 hbrn bullets with Clays or VV310 to a 150PF, and have fun! The gun will run like a top, and shoot it until you wear it out or decide you WANT another steel gun, not because you have to...... :)

DougC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is what I did: Go through your closet/safe and dig out all the pistols, scopes, rifles, etc. that you are not using anymore. Then take all of your 'project guns' and whatever came out of storage, and sell the whole kittenkaboodle.

Then call Benny (or the smith of your choice) and get what you want. I sold a shotgun and two pistols, and bought a fat free from Benny. Then I sold three scopes and bought an AR from Benny. Two BADA$$ guns and no extra money out of pocket, with the bonus of more room in my safe.

Trying to retro fit something into something else never works as well as doing it right from the gitgo.

Problem I see with that pistol is that the front sight is on the comp, you would have to cut the slide (ruining any collectability) and it is probably worth alot more to a collector, than to a shooter. So if you want to be a shooter, sell it to a collector and get a competative gun. If the slide had a front sight already cut, I would say get a barrel for it and shoot limited 10. Then you would not have to ruin any collectability.

my .02

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is a bushed comp..unscrew it and put in a new bbl....then shoot SS...it is a Springer for heavens sake, not a 70 Series Colt...I would shoot it like it is if it was a cone comp, but the way it is built, replace the bbl and don't worry about it...you can always drop the old bbl back in and screw the comp on and shoot it..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is a bushed comp..unscrew it and put in a new bbl....then shoot SS...it is a Springer for heavens sake, not a 70 Series Colt...I would shoot it like it is if it was a cone comp, but the way it is built, replace the bbl and don't worry about it...you can always drop the old bbl back in and screw the comp on and shoot it..

barrel swap will work, but you will still have to cut the slide for a front sight

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...