Owen Sparks Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 Sorry to ask an a greenhorn question, but I am new to shotgun compitition (but not new to shotguns) Is there even such a thing as a "double tap" in a shotgun match? If there is not, it would seem to narrow the advantage autos have over pumps somewhat in the limited class. To me, shooting a pump is sorta akin to driving a stick shift where as shooting an auto is like driving a car with an automatic transmission. Sure it's faster, but the interaction between man and machine is missing. I'm sure the sports car buffs know what I mean. OS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 Unless a slug stage requires two hits per target at close range, or a piece of falling steel is a little heavy and you decide to whack it twice real fast, it ain't gonna' be a very important thing in the scheme of things. I have come across both situations maybe a couple times in over 15 years. Nope, not a big thing to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 I agree with George that it isn't a big issue, certainly not over a whole match but pumps usually run slower that semi-autos on target arrays. I say the gun runs slower whereas of course I mean the shooter can't usually run them as quick. Having said that, I've seen some VERY quick shooters with a pump gun who out-shoot guys with semis. I've seen a fair number of occasions where there has been a opportunity to double tap a target. The 2003 European Shotgun Championships featured a significant amount of slugs and most targets required 2 hits. Many of these could be double-tapped. Slightly over 50% of the match was slugs, amounting to approx 120 rounds over 10/11 stages. On the other hand the 2006 Europeans, being held next month in Greece, only has a single target requiring 2 slug hits. All other slug targets only require a single hit. In the UK, and from reviewing many IPSC Level III matches from around the world, I can report that there are a number of stages in matches that require 2 slug hits per target. If the targets are placed at longer distances then the solution is 2 aimed shots rather than "double tapping" and taking all factors into account I still come back to my earlier statement, and George's, that it isn't a big issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbullgpd Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 I agree with George that it isn't a big issue, certainly not over a whole match but pumps usually run slower that semi-autos on target arrays. I say the gun runs slower whereas of course I mean the shooter can't usually run them as quick. Having said that, I've seen some VERY quick shooters with a pump gun who out-shoot guys with semis. If you have a religous pump shooter, maybe someone who carries a pump everyday and shoots it often, in a stand up stage a pump gunner can run faster than a semi auto cause the auto is limited by the speed of the gas or recoil system. I have P.O.'ed many a auto shooter by shooting my pump in a match. That being said when you start dealing with limited shooting platforms like shooting in a car, prone, and other restricted mobility shooting then the semi auto really takes the cake. Trying to run a pump at that point in time becomes a chore. That is unfortunately why I finally went to a semi auto, but I miss my pump. My slug transitions were also alot faster with the pump midstage than guys with auto's. Depending on where you shoot it might not be a huge factor but some of the local and area matches that I have shot there is always at least one or more stages with some limited mobility positions and after my shotgun times were costing me places I had to switch. But I still shoot my 870 for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 Go to Pat Kelley's shotgun match in Ephrata, WA this October and you will have a use for "double taps" with a shotgun - provided he does the shoot house with slugs again. www.multigun.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 (edited) Kurt miller and i were practicing for Greece the other day and we shot two slugs on paper. our splits for two shots were .21 to .24, the hits were not anything less than 2 C's on the "ameba", international ipsc targets. target placement was 13 yds. Iknow I was firing 2 aimed shots not a double tap. hope this is helps......trapr Edited August 20, 2006 by bigbrowndog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Trapr, Seems there was at least one split that was .19. Should we tell time for the stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 WELL......we didn't actually shoot the stage the way the it was supposed to be shot for the ESC, but 4 clays w/ slugs plus two hits on paper, from the ready position, in under?????secs, was pretty cool. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Done the way it is supposed to run, shotgun empty on table shooter starting in a chair, it usually runs in the low 8s! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 just got back the from the range, for me i can do 9.6- 9.8 pretty consistently, with the chair 10' from the gun.....my best was 9.22. the two hits on paper, were a's or a/c, with .20 - .24 splits. that is slowing down due to only having the required six rounds for the stage, loading an extra round runs the time up to low 10's, but you wind up with an "oh shit" round. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 (edited) Me thinks it is a good stage for a Short Course. The "Oh sh*t" consideration certainly adds to the interest. The clays are easy to hit, right up to the point where you're at an international match, thousands of miles from home, with a crowd watching and the clock running. Trapr, you won't win the match on a stage like this. A defensive "good enough" time is arguably worth banking instead. Unless you are Kurt! Taking the match as a whole, it's a marathon, not a sprint. I'm looking forward to meeting you in a couple of weeks. Edited August 21, 2006 by Neil Beverley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 it usually runs in the low 8s! .... I find it usually goes in about 7.9 ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 AHHHH.....Mike I didn't realize that you were really Kelly Neil in disguise! Now I know why your so good! And it looks like there might be a little Texan in you too . Didn't you mean the LOW 7.9s KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benelli2 Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 I guess I know what I have to try this afternoon, how are you holding the clays? And what distance jc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 neil, i think its an excellent course as well. you are right practice ain't race day. but is is nice being able to try out different ways of getting that first round into the gun, my initial thought was definetly not the best. jeff, its stage 2, the stages are up on the ESC06 website. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 (edited) For the ESC match the clays are supported on wooden sticks. We don't want to use metal holders because of the closeness in conjunction with slugs. Distance is stated as 12 meters. neil, i think its an excellent course as well. you are right practice ain't race day. but is is nice being able to try out different ways of getting that first round into the gun, my initial thought was definetly not the best.jeff, its stage 2, the stages are up on the ESC06 website. Trapr How does the saying go ...............? "You can't miss fast enough to win!" I also added a link to a downloadable C of F file in the ESC thread over here on BE. Edited August 21, 2006 by Neil Beverley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Every day is race day, it is just that some days the wear and tear on the equipment means more than others. Thanks for the link Neil, I am looking forward to seeing you in two weeks!! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 I guess I know what I have to try this afternoon, how are you holding the clays? And what distance Jeff we are holding the clays at full arms length between thumb and forefinger, and letting go just as we pull the trigger.... its good practice ..... but make sure you let go in time !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 T.O.U., I will take the pepsi challenge against a pump shooter with my benelli auto on any speed shoot & I know kurt wants some of it to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 .... Well my $20 is on the Hillmyster...... I always try and invest in the smart money ! I know some QUALITY pump shooters but NO ONE I know can cycle a pump gun and shoot plates in .2 sec splits.... EVER ! ...with a semi this is kinda better shooter than average... with a pump this is Rocking Horse Poo ... very very rare... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbullgpd Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 T.O.U., I will take the pepsi challenge against a pump shooter with my benelli auto on any speed shoot & I know kurt wants some of it to. I ain't touching that bet I was referencing the average shooter, not you super shooter guys. I have out shot some open and semi auto guys with my pump on a good day with neutral stand and shoot stages, thats all I'm sayin. there is a line you cross at some point comparing the gun vs. the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Mikey.... Jeff's our shooter, only we can harass him like that!!!!! besides we were getting someone else to hold the clays for us, we didn't want any missing digits before the big match. the trick was to break them before they hit the ground, and with the unloaded gun its not as easy as it sounds. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillL223 Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Having shot and RO'd for many years at the PSA Shootout Shotgun Side Match when it was a stand and shoot 5 poppers starting with gun shouldered and muzzel on the table, The quick autos ran about 1.5 seconds and the quick pumps ran about 2.0 seconds. IMHO autos are about .1 second per shot quicker. I have been timed with a .15 split with slugs on a swinger in a match when I was younger and faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benelli2 Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 You guys are my hero's, best I could muster on the slug stage was high 9's. Though I still need to work on how to get the one in the chamber better, but hitting those flying clays with the slugs right at 12 yards was the real bi__h. Kurt, have you got Benny's bottle ready? jc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdmoore Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 T.O.U., I will take the pepsi challenge against a pump shooter with my benelli auto on any speed shoot & I know kurt wants some of it to. I ain't touching that bet I was referencing the average shooter, not you super shooter guys. I have out shot some open and semi auto guys with my pump on a good day with neutral stand and shoot stages, thats all I'm sayin. there is a line you cross at some point comparing the gun vs. the shooter. I think what he's trying to say is that the speed of the action of a semi does not affect the outcome, NO ONE is outshooting their semi, so it stands to reason that you can't outshoot one with a pump Not meaning to pile on, but I think you've said it better in the above post. YOU can outshoot some semi shooters with a pump (but it has nothing to do with the pump). And my hats off to you, I've seen your type (with a pump) and it's a pleasure to watch someone who knows how to run one. Same pleasure watching a revolver master. But I'm not shooting a pump OR a revolver anytime soon, I'll stick with my semi's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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