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2 Pound Triggers


00bullitt

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Woody has some good points here. Yes. I spent about $20,000.00 and five years trying to win an IPSC in Aurora Colorado. Thye best I did was a high in C Class. I got my butt kicked in every match by the guns I built for guys that could SHOOT! I loved every minute of it and even built a few Hi Caps. Then I could not finish a gun in 90 days that was not obsolete on arrival. I designed a compensator 15 years ago or more that is still better than anything else going today and that gun has a Two Pound trigger as we speak that has never done a double. Before and after my IPSC match experience, I built and tweaked guns for Cops. I have an IPSC red eye out these that has over 90,000 rounds through it in .38 Super that has never barfed even once and still does 3/4ths of an inch at 25 yards. It belongs to my old time accountant up in Denver, CO. SHRED knows me and he also knows that I did not teach him to a "Trigger Job" in the Class he was in. You really do not want to know my honest opinon about "Trigger Jobs" I have been in matches where guns doubled. I have seen them go full auto. I have seen shooters bang in a Wilson mag and then have a foot full of bullets and spring. I attended matches sometimes twice a week and was at the range four to five times a week. I jumped in on the 10mm Centaur craze and built guns that would put all the rounds in the head of an IPSC target at 40 years and other folks have seen these feats. I was a master of El Presidente's and could beat most of the people that shot at the Aurora gun club. But who cares?

I am teaching my 7th Online 1911 Class over the Internet as I speak. I am going to teach these Alumni Students who have all taken previous class with me how I do trigger work. I am also going to teach them a lot of other things we do. We are building a Retro .38 Super with a Kart Gunsmith fit ramped barrel this time and they will then know everything I know. (Almost). You will notice that I did not say "Trigger Job". I am simply not in a position to help anyone ruin perfectly good parts here. Bullit seems to be happy with what he has learned from all of the rest of you. You all could have learned something from what I said, but maybe not.

I am not tender and I do not get offended. I like all of you and please speak what is on your mind! Whatever you think, we are sharing information. I am sorry if it doesn't suit your plan, but it is sharing , of sorts!

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I hear ya' Dave.

Got a nice ole' .38 stupor that had a 2lb trigger put in it originaly (slightly under 2lbs actually).

It started to double and triple on me in under a year after I had it built. It had quality parts and was well done, but when I took it back for a re-work, I asked for 3 to 3.5 lbs and a tad more sear engagement instead of a repeat of the first setup.

Ten years later, it is still a pleasure to pull that nice crisp 3lb plus trigger. I also appreciate the fact that I only get one shot at a time, every single time many years later ;-)

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Benny.....I'd like to thank you for taking 15 minutes out of your day to share the info that I was looking for. Lucky for me people like you exist. I didn't even buy the gun from you and you were willing to help me. That means alot and I won't forget it:)

I used to be able to turn to the internet and find answers through forums like this one where many folks were willing to share and divulge information about any given topic. Unaware.....I used my first post to ask a useful and necessary question for myself and to my amazement got no real answers to it. Unless the answer I was expectingto my question was to "take it to a professional." Nobody here knows anything about me or what I am capable of. They have only assumed that I would do something dangerous.

Benny was kind enough to take the time to walk me through some particulars. 95% of which I already knew. I just wanted verification that what I believed was correct. I also found out that what I really wanted was not a 2 pound trigger.....but a 2.5 pound trigger. I could not feel the reset or stay in contact with a trigger as light as 2 pounds. I'm suire this will be another debate. I prefer to ride the reset and feel the trigger on every shot. 2.5 pounds crisp fit my bill perfectly. I still was interested in knowing how to make my trigger break reliably at 2 pounds to at least experiment. Again.....thank you Benny for not letting liability scare you away.

I carry a gun everyday all day I'm awake. My carry guns and IDPA guns all have 3.5-4 pound triggers. I am very used to them and can shoot them extremely well. I recently decided to start competing in the "arms race" of today again and have purchased a used limited gun of which Benny made a few years back. A gun that I knew needed some TLC that I was capable of giving it. I do believe a true competiton only gun benefits from a lighter trigger to answer the question of why to all who do not agree.That was my purpose for this post. I wanted to get as light as 2 pounds and work up from there. Good for me that I didn't like a 2 pound trigger. Now all you guys can feel safe when you're around me at the range.

To those that truly offered sincere help......thank you!!!! To those that were to liability ridden and stuck on yourselves........thanks for nothing.

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00bullitt, to point out a major detail that you have overlooked in your rant is the fact that Benny took the time to tell you about these things on the phone, as it should be done.

I really don't see anyone with an ounce of sense in their head wanting to post on the internet specific techniques about how to do something that could be turned into a liability issue later on were someone to get injured behind it and choose to take the poster of that info to task.

That only points out the liability issue at stake for the poster. What about the owner of the forum and their stake in this were the worst case to come to pass?

Have you thought about the fact that more folks are involved here than you alone and that they actually put themselves at risk if they do as you ask. That might explain why the right thinkin' folk stated things the way they did.

Edited by George
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George........I asked for someone to PM or email me if they were too liability ridden to post it publicly. Benny was the only one who offered and emailed.

I also don't agree with the liability aspect of sharing information. Its the end users decision and labor that will carry out the task on his or her handgun. Not the individual sharing the information. Its a shame that the world has come down to this. Everyone is terrified of liability today.

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Well, Brian posted his 'trigger job secrets' on here long ago. It's still here, and I remember several links being posted from other helpful people but I think the point is that on the internet you can claim all the experience and tools in the world and still be a 14 year old with a file and keyboard. Talking to somebody on the phone, they can figure that out real quick. Given as how maybe 5 or 10 guys on here probably even know what it takes to do a good 2 lb trigger and how many of them could explain it either in person or in writing, I'd say you done good.

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I am all about doing whatever I want to my gear, but I am also all about being concerned for what get's Googled out of this forum. Try a Google search for anything firearms related and see how often a thread here comes up then tell me who the audience for what get's posted here is. Guess what, it's the entire world!

This underlies my concern for there being enough safety concious viewpoint in this thread that it balances the "hey, how can I get a super light trigger" content. At least that way folks hopefully get the right message here.

Benny did it the right way and so will anyone else who is in business, wants to stay in business and has to buy liability insurance for their business. Shred stated the bottom line very well and that is "a phone call is not text that can be searched forever". End of my story.

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00bullitt, to point out a major detail that you have overlooked in your rant is the fact that Benny took the time to tell you about these things on the phone, as it should be done.

I really don't see anyone with an ounce of sense in their head wanting to post on the internet specific techniques about how to do something that could be turned into a liability issue later on were someone to get injured behind it and choose to take the poster of that info to task.

That only points out the liability issue at stake for the poster. What about the owner of the forum and their stake in this were the worst case to come to pass?

Have you thought about the fact that more folks are involved here than you alone and that they actually put themselves at risk if they do as you ask. That might explain why the right thinkin' folk stated things the way they did.

George, this is the internet.

Jack Weigand, a guildmember, has an article for public consumption on the Brownell's site:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/N...p;t=1&i=349

Go to some of the other forums and you have noted smiths debating/discussing for public consumption the methods they use. This forum has oodles of such posts. The owner of the site discussed what he learned about doing his triggers.

I am unaware of any legal theory for which anyone could hold anyone liable for a post in the gunsmith forum on trigger jobs. Not under contract law, not under tort law, not under criminal law, not under common law, not under any law. If you are aware of such a legal theory, please explain.

In summary, I do not agree with you. If someone has such a view, it may be more appropriate to just refrain from responding to the question instead of "I know how but I won't tell you" or "2lb triggers are unsafe."

Respectfully, I hope that your viewpoint doesn't not prevail-otherwise we could just have a gunsmith forum with one sticky post titled "See a Gunsmith." That would be unfortunate.

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I was the first person who answered this thread. Perhaps I set a bad tone, erring on safety's side.

It was my belief,( which later on verified by 00bullit himself after talking to Benny) that he already pretty much had "all" that was needed to accomplish the task at hand, given the proper "quality parts" to use. He said he already knew 95% of what Benny said to him, and just needed confirmation. I gave him that confirmation in my post by telling him to just go and do it with what he already had. He only needed a little bit more "experience" in doing it. That's how most of us got there.

In my own personal Open gun I run a trigger around 6 -8 ounces, definetly less than half of one pound. I am using a 19 lbs mainspring and my hammer hooks are not less than .020" I have fired over fifteen thousand rounds of full PF witout any malfunctions or doubling up. It takes an experienced, trained shooter to be able to shoot such a gun without getting into trouble. I have seen shooters complain that a 2lbs trigger is "too light". In my action work I am continuosly tweaking competition guns both up and down the scale to suit the owners. The shooter's approach for such need is more important than the mere wish for a light trigger. AD's is not something we are looking for, and it requires a development of a special feel to know when the "reset" done, and if it can be done both by slapping or riding the trigger.

I normally receive quite a bit of PM's and e-mail ( and some phone calls) asking me such questions, which I endeavour to answer in a manner proper to the individual's feedback and need. No, mostly this does not end in remuneration for me, but I like to give back and promote the Sport which has done so much for me. Yet, a lot of this information would not be proper if discussed in an "open forum", liability or not, especially when "cutting edge" issues are discussed, and margins of error can be costly in various ways.

Also, demanding to get information is not the proper approach. How about a little bit more "honey" put into the request. Many thread requests in these forums have gone unanswered when the perspective is not there.

Anyway, Welcome aboard 00bullit. :)B);)

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"Thanks for nothing" You are welcome, Bullit. I gave all of you a lot of information that you could not see or compute. You were looking for free advice and you got it from Mr.Hill. You should be as happy as a dead pig in mud now. Mission accomplished for you and the others who did not get anything or learn anything from my posts. You are typical of the gun forum guys and I wish you well. You are obviously a wonderful person and highly skilled in the "Art of the 1911". I wish you continued success in your pistolsmithing work. I have never regreted getting out of the Toy Gun Business and you have made me even happier that I am doing what I do now.

Here is a toast to all the great shooters here with their 2lb (or Less) trigger pulls! I am glad you are so highly skilled and I feel a lot better about you guys now! I was never that good, I guess. Oh well.............................

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"Thanks for nothing" You are welcome, Bullit. I gave all of you a lot of information that you could not see or compute. You were looking for free advice and you got it from Mr.Hill. You should be as happy as a dead pig in mud now. Mission accomplished for you and the others who did not get anything or learn anything from my posts. You are typical of the gun forum guys and I wish you well. You are obviously a wonderful person and highly skilled in the "Art of the 1911". I wish you continued success in your pistolsmithing work. I have never regreted getting out of the Toy Gun Business and you have made me even happier that I am doing what I do now.

Here is a toast to all the great shooters here with their 2lb (or Less) trigger pulls! I am glad you are so highly skilled and I feel a lot better about you guys now! I was never that good, I guess. Oh well.............................

Dave, I read many many of your posts on other forums. I mean this with all due respect, but your posts are most often about your past accomplishments, and about how only certain gunsmiths should do certain work etc etc. I sure you have a very impressive background. However, in a gunsmithing forum, you should have really two kinds of posts-those seeking input, and those giving it. The majority of your posts do neither. You also seem to go out of your way to disparage USPSA. "Current Arms race" and "Toy Gun Business" comments leave a bad taste. Do you have any physical limitations that would absolutely bar you from shooting with a local USPSA club? If not come on out! If so, come and watch, maybe RO! I suspect that the vast vast majority of USPSA shooters are not in an "arms race" and we don't shoot "toy guns." Regardless, we have as much fun :P

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You all could have learned something from what I said, but maybe not.

I am not tender and I do not get offended. I like all of you and please speak what is on your mind! Whatever you think, we are sharing information. I am sorry if it doesn't suit your plan, but it is sharing , of sorts!

Unfortunate for all of us that we did not decode your hidden messages which you were trying to relay through your attempted answers and replies to our posts. You apparently are not as thick skinned as you said above since my last post caused you to get bent out of shape by the sounds of your recent reply.

I am thrilled that Benny answered my questions for free. I'm sure he was looking at the bigger picture by helping me get one of his older guns running like a champ again. I will definitely remeber Mr. Hill come time to build my next Limited class "toy gun" for me to compete in the "arms race" of USPSA. Simple gestures like his go along way in the business world.

Obviously you put yourself on a pedestal and outcast yourself from us "gun forum guys". Apparently your accomplishments in your yester years have made you better than all of us.

Why do you continue to reply to threads if you do not like the sport of USPSA/IPSC action shooting and those who participate? Why do you lurk and reply to threads in this forum if you are so glad that you no longer work on pistols and disagree so strongly with what and how we do with our pistols? I must also know......what is so wrong with free advice?

I'm going to take some time now and go back and reread your posts to try and unlock your hidden message. Remeber you are not tender and do not get offended. I'm just speaking what is on my mind and calling it as I see it.

Edited by 00bullitt
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A few of you guys are pretty new to posting here.

We are going to limit the back and forth that has gone on in other forums in the past. Don't bring those fights here.

Please review the Forum Guidelines...particularly:

Welcome to Brian's Forums!

We’ve found the following guidelines indispensable in keeping the Forum enjoyable, informational, and just a fun place to hang out.

Posting Guidelines

Attitude

Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful. Please – no antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones.

...

Intent

This Forum is for firearm, technique, and conceptual discussions pertaining to training and competition. (And various unrelated topics.) ...

If you have something to hash out with another forum member...do so off the forum.

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Kyle F.

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