jmc9x23 Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 When shooting an IDPA stage you have 3 targets set at 3 yards and your asked to double tap each. After your done, you go up to score the target and the S.O. says "T1 down 5" upon looking closer you believe the shot that is in the middle of the -0 zone is a little elongated so you say" I think this is a double" and the S.O. comes over a looks and pulls out a transparent overlay and states "nope, I'm not giving it to you" You go to the Match Director and show him in the rulebook where it says all calls go to the shooter even doubles. The Match Director says you'll have to reshoot the entire stage. What happens here is whats happening alot in IDPA. This happens because of the Range Nazi mentallity that has transferred over from other shooting disciplines. The whole purpose for the IDPA rules and rational was to do away with this mentality. If there is a question on a score or a double, it goes in favor of the shooter...ALWAYS. There are no reshoots except for malfunctions or SO error(except in the Classifier). The use of overlays is forbidden because it does'nt matter...it goes to the shooter. The purpose of the S.O. in IDPA is to assist and help the shooter have a successful experience. This was to be different than the Range Officer that has a disiplinary connotation. I'm not saying that the RO mentality is wrong or right, it's just not what the IDPA wants. (Edited by jmc9x23 at 1:58 pm on Oct. 1, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 What is the word on using overlays for USPSA? I didn't think it was allowed there either. I saw quite a few of them at the Limited Nationals. I don't think anyone there (RO's) were trying to take anything away from the shooters though. They seemed to simply use them as tools when scoring the targets. Often they pulled them out when there was a hope that they could give the "miss" to the shooter...as a double. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 I've only used an overlay to show a hole was a single hole (or perfect double, if you will). If there was any doubt in my mind, the shooter got two hits. You need overlays simply because there are enough shooters who feel the "doubt goes to the shooter" clause is their personal weasel clause to get out of bad shooting. The overlay offers more precision, but the call is the RO's, not the shooters to make. If you think it is a double (a statistical rarity) you'd better hope the hole is oval. Otherwise, saying you think it is when the RO and the rest of the squad all saw the dirt splash three feet from the target is a sure path to weaseldom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmc9x23 Posted October 1, 2001 Author Share Posted October 1, 2001 The case i pointed to actually happened. The other shooters said it looked like a double to them. The hole was slightly oval. But I heard a statement the other day" I've never seen a perfect double". I don't believe you could prove or disprove this claim. If a shooter wants to be a weasel then weasel he will be. Most of us shooters are an honest bunch, so if someone tells me they believe it to be a double...then it is.. when I'm scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 Flex, Overlays are fine with USPSA. In fact, in my RO training a couple years ago they spent a lot of time going over scoring & the use of overlays. Every year when my RO re-certification comes up, they send me 2 new overlays. NROI expects you to use them. If the match in question were a USPSA match, I would expect any competent RO to use overlays. If they didn't automatically use them, I would ask them to. Now, IDPA, that's a different story... Oh yeah, it's not a bad idea to keep a couple in your wallet in case the RO can't find theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Capizzo Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 Yes, overlays are standard tools for USPSA range officers. In fact the sets that I have have the USPSA logo and were "issued" at a range officer class. As far as doubles at a match, they do happen, and if there is the slightest doubt I'll give it to the shooter. But sometimes there is no doubt, its only one hit, and if the shooter keeps bitchen' I'll take overlays and look for doubles on a no shoot hit too. Nobody ever claims a double on them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talon Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 Interesting. I went and looked up the rule and it said and I quote. "When in doubt of a scoring call, always award the higher value to the shooter. This also applies to doubles." Where is that spell check button I read that as - if the RO has any doubt then he should award the higher value. Not the shooter. Anybody agree ? (Edited by talon at 9:34 pm on Oct. 1, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 jmc9x23 Sounds like you found a Range Nazi. Overlays and Range Nazi's are prohibited by IDPA. That doesn't mean there aren't a few. The shooter should have been scored down zero on T-1. The shooter ALWAYS gets the higher score when there is a question in IDPA. You might give a shooter a higher score than they shot once in a while BUT you will NEVER give someone LESS than they earned. IDPA now has Area Coordinators. You should contact your and let him know about this club. I have seen perfect doubles. If your gun returns correctly after the first shot then the second shot should go through the same hole. Isn't this what we are trying to do? Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 Talon hit it dead on. If the RO has any doubt, it goes to the shooter. Of course the shooter has a doubt, but then his/her doubts are influenced by stage and match standings, right? I'm not saying be a Range Nazi, but if it was solely the shooters call, why have an RO go downrange and score? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 I am gonna throw my two cents worth in here. Back in my younger days I used to be the final say in PPC matches regarding scoring protests and arbitration. Here's how it went. If I had any doubt at all (after using overlays and/or an optical comparator) then the benefit of the doubt always went to the shooter. If there was do doubt in my mind, then I made the decision and that's the way it is. If the shooter or peanut gallery disagreed so be it. In your case, if I couldn't see the "double" you wouldn't get it. End of story. The buck stops here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 I attribute a lot of the problems getting an RO to call a double is because of the article Wil Schueman wrote a few years ago. I know Wil is a very smart guy but his study was not realistic. He ran a computer program to determine the probability of a perfect double for so many random shots on a IPSC target. His published results were that it was basically impossible to have a perfect double. I've heard RO's use this as their justification for not awarding the double. The problem with Wil's study is that it ignores the human factor and the fact that the shooter is trying to hit the center of the target every time. I've shot a lot of perfect doubles in practice over my 30 years of shooting but hardly ever got credit for one in a match. And no, I'm not claiming to be that good, it's luck when it happens but it does happen, I've also completely missed a target at 3 yds a few times so there it is. As a counterpoint I was at a big match long ago when a fairly well known shooter was claiming several perfect doubles on one target, and he got them! I guess it could be that the guys who holler double when they know they probably had a miss ruin the chances for the others who did actually have a double. JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 I know I quit shooting at the same spot on the target with my bow after ruining several expensive carbon arrows. Looks cool but ruins arrows.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 Hey guys, help me out here. I have only seen overlays used a couple of times at IPSC matches and I have never seen anyone use an optical comparator. I have never seen a perfect double because an optical comparator will show eccentric holes, etc. in mere thousanths of an inch. Do they use optics at the nationals or is that kind of thing left to the "paper" punchers from other sports??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmc9x23 Posted October 9, 2001 Author Share Posted October 9, 2001 While I was a SO on the standards stage at the nationals I had three occasions where I saw the bullets hit the target but had problems finding the hit. One, the CSO had called a miss and I overrode his decision because I knew all the shots were on target. I awarded all the doubles and two were almost perfect. Thats the way the IDPA is set up. If you believe one is a double and nobody saw it fly over the target, it goes to the shooter. Now I know this opens the door for shooters to try and get away with one, but thats what its all about. Nobody wins the Winnebago or prize money. So why would someone cheat? IDPA wants to be like the PGA, if you screw up you pull yourself from the competition. Its a TRUST thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted December 8, 2001 Share Posted December 8, 2001 That's a wonderful ideal, but there will always be that unfortunate minority who'll cheat just for match standing, or ego, not just for money. I don't think, "If there's any doubt, the decision goes to the shooter" means "Any time the shooter says it's a double, it is." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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