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9x19 Open Major?


Flexmoney

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My 2 cents:

Seems to me a (somewhat) easy way out would be a 20-round capacity limit in Limited.  I was at the TX State Ltd Championships a couple weeks ago and tons of people were rushing around trying to get just the right combination of basepads, springs, followers and tubes to get 20 or 22 rounds in a magazine (of course nobody brought out the calipers either..).

Slap on a 20-round limit, let in the 9's.  See what happens.  

(Way back when at an old Area 4, Andy Hollar told me they never should have created Limited class without capacity restrictions..)

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  • 2 weeks later...

The issue of 9x19 Major is interesting for me as that was the hot ticket in Dallas in 1986 when I started shooting USPSA. The top shooters were shooting single stack, dual port, iron-sighted, 9x19 major. The 9x19 major was loaded long like 38 Super and we used 160 grain lead bullets. As time went by, we tried the 150 grain lead bullets.

9x19 major was preferred to 38 super because 9x19 brass was plentiful and cheap. In 1986, good 38 super brass was hard to get. The 38 super brass that was available was "thin" and had a nasty habit of failing ("superface"). Remember, this was before ramped barrels in 1911.

Better 38 super brass and ramped barrels made the 9x19 major obsolete.

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By the way - how many people remember the  Browning HighPowers in 9mm major? These were major and normal 9x19 length. Cylinder and Slide made these for quite a while when the PF was 170. Unfortunately, the Browning HP would not stand up to that kind of punishment. I had one of these and it was great. One of tne original hi-cap gamey guns!

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  • 2 weeks later...

If we want to allow 9mm Major in Limited (why not, if its allowed in Open?) then we can cut short the equipment race this way:

Limited guns shooting .355" bullets are restricted to 126mm magazines.  My 126's hold 19 rounds of Super.  So, you can shoot a 40 with 20-21 rounds in a 140 tube, or 19-20 rounds in a 126mm tube.

As for "should we?" physics is taking care of that.  Powder developments will soon have some powder that makes Major in a 9mm case at pressures close enough to regular spec that we will have to face it.

The smart thing for USPSA to do would be get together with gun and powder manufacturers and spec out a case like the .356 TSW.  Make the leade long, set the pressure at a rational level, define it as the allowed .355" Major case.  Then allow its use in Limited.  Allow it in factory-made guns.  Heck, even get some cases made up with "9mm USPSA" headstamps.

Yes, I know, you'd all rather re-build your existing Limited gun to the new caliber (assuming you need to change).  And if you do, why should any gun manufacturer pay any attention to us?  Will S&W, Ruger, et al?  Don't worry, it will take S_I and others an hour to re-program the cutter paths to then offer a USPSA-approved .355" Limited Major model.  but without some reason, why would S&W?  Taurus?  Ruger?

Why would they make such a beast?  Try selling 9mm +P+ ammo to law enforcement.  When the Chief asks what the extra +'s are for, and how fast the guns break, he's not too keen.  A 356 TSW/9mmUSPSA could do what the 357 Sig does, but offer more in the mag.  Now LE might be interested.  And if it is winning matches, then its an easier LE sell.

Ideological purity is nice, but without corporate sponsors, where are we?  

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Patrick,

Sounds like a whole lot of work for nothing. VV already makes major. Why go and reinvent the wheel? I have factory +P+ LE ammo that chrono's a 170 PF in a 5" bbl. The LE community is slow to change and the .357 sig is barely alive in LE. We went through  the small caliber lots of rounds mess in the 80's and early 90's I don't want to go there again. I want a big bullet  for duty. The .40 is a good compromise. It will do everything the .357 sig does and more.  A new case solves what problem? The advantages of the 9mm is cheap brass. The new case will be as much as super or 9x23 so the big question is why? I don't think 9mm is for limited, lets work on open first.

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The reason for the new case, and the reason a whole lot of people are leery of the 9mm Major issue is simple: old guns.  When you can buy a crusty old Inglis Hi Power (I have one) for $189, what ammo maker wants to offer 9mm Major ammo?

A new case allows us to set new specs such as a long leade and a new pressure ceiling (How about a realistic 42K instead of the 34K 9mm and the others are limited to?).  The new case also gives us the lever to keep soft and fragile old guns from being used at Major.

Yes, the 40 is doing well, but only because the 9mm is hobbled.  If USPSA hadn't stuck it to S&W a decade ago and killed the 356 TSW, do you think we'd now have LE interested in a 135 gr 40 cal load?  The FBI would have given up their quest for a 10mm they could get agents to qualify with, and gone to the TSW, launching 147 gr XTP's at 1200 fps.

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We let 38 super make major and no factory ammo makes major. There are lots of old supers out there. We could add a rule requireing a fully suported chamber which should take  the old stuff out of the equation. Open is all custom built so I don't see a problem there. The new case still doesn't have any advantage over 9x23 etc. You can fit the same number of rounds in the mag. The bullets cost the same, you might save a little on powder, the cases are going to be 100+ a thousand. 9mm brass is dirt cheap and there lies the advantage. The .40 with 180's was and is a poor choice, the 155's work much better. Unfortunatley we still issue 180 SXT's.

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  • 1 month later...

"We have too many rules now. Everytime you turn around there's a new rulebook. At this rate we'll be like IDPA."

Come on, dude: have you looked at the relative thickness of the IPSC vs. IDPA rule books? IPSC/USPSA will only ever be that simple in our dreams. And IDPA's doctrine is that the rules get updated, what, every five years?

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Would I use a 9x23 in Lim-10 if it were legal? You betcha. The moment that becomes legal, I'm there, guys. For match and carry. That's 10 rounds of semi-automatic .357 Magnum duplicate in a standard length 1911 mag, for the maximum capacity legal in Lim-10, but with standard length mags that handle SO much better than the extra-long jobbies in .45. I'm sold.

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