9x19 Open Major?

[Flexmoney]

This is a carry-over from another thread.

The 14th USPSA rule book seems to say that 9x19 can be loaded to Major for Open class.

There is a ruling, still in effect, from 1990 that says no.

This would be a good place to post it.

[Shooter Grrl]

The following was copied from the July 1, 1990 Board of Directors meeting minutes found on the USPSA Members web site.

"The BOD entered into executive discussion of the .38 super and .9mm and put together the following resolutions which were unanimously passed.

WHEREAS one of the principal obligations of the Board of Directors of the United States Practical Shooting Association is to encourage the development of equipment and techniques that will safely advance the craft of practical shooting in a sporting atmosphere, and

WHEREAS empirical evidence has been presented to the Board of Directors that raises serious questions of safety regarding the loading of 9mm (9X19) ammunition so that it can achieve the major power factor of 175,000,

NOW THEREFORE, IT IS HEREBY RESOLVED, that the use of 9mm Parabellum (9X19) ammunition with an overall length of less than 1.250 inches AND LOADED TO THE MAJOR POWER FACTOR CATEGORY is specifically prohibited and will not be allowed to be used in USPSA events until such time as the Board of Directors can be assured by clear and convincing verifiable evidence that such ammunition can be safely loaded to achieve the major power factor category."

I followed up the discussion with a quick email to President Voigt and he stated:

"1990 BOD decision is in effect at this point"

[Flexmoney]

Shooter Grrl,

This is a good one to cut your teeth on.

So, now everybody will want to know why a twelve year old decision is not in the rule book.  

What else ins't in the rule book?  I also saw in the minutes of that meeting that they you might be allowed to reload a 1911 with your finger in the trigger guard if the gun was at slide-lock.

Tee-hee  

[Shooter Grrl]

I also want to know why a 12 year old resolution isn't in the rulebook, and you can bet I asked that exact question!

[Singlestack]

"So, now everybody will want to know why a twelve year old decision is not in the rule book."

And in fact, seems to be contradicted in the newest rule book.

Can you imagine the conversation at the range.... "You can't DQ me! Its in the BOD minutes that I CAN reload with my finger in the trigger guard"

LOL

[Shooter Grrl]

I think saying that it is contradicted is really pushing it - nowhere does it say that 9x19 can or should be loaded to major.  The rules simply state the MINIMUM cal allowed is 9x19.  

[Singlestack]

Pushing it huh?

Nowhere does it say you CAN"T or SHOULDN'T load 9x19 to major. It says the minimum bullet weight is 112. Vihtavouri lists a 147gr BTHP with 5.1g N350 @ 1084fps. That equals 159.3 PF. Thats pretty close.......

The rule that states 9x19 is the minimum IMPLIES that it can be loaded to major since it does not specify a minimum for major.

Every other division specifies a minimum caliber for major except open, so if one were to try to apply logic to the rules, the lack of a major specification in open leads one to believe that a 9x19 caliber with at least a 112g bullet is the minimum for major open. However impossible or dangerous that is.

[Shooter Grrl]

Here's the reason why the 9x19 isn't clear in the current rulebook:

It wasn't put in because we're hoping to have the issue resolved.  (The load is currently being tested to prove that it is within SAAMI specs at the new PF -kl ) We could just make the resolution go away with a board vote, but if it was in the rule book, we could not change it until the next rules come out, which is in the by-laws."

Above quote is from John Amidon, slightly edited, and the words in parantheses are my own!

[Patrick Sweeney]

My prediction is that within five years (certainly within ten) the Board will have to address .355" Major loads.  There are already published loads in all the manuals (pressure-tested loads from powder makers) that list Major .38 Super loads.  In another couple of powder development iterations, there will be dense low-pressure powders that deliver .38 Super Major across the board (all bullet weights), and some selected 9x19 loads.

My proposal is this:  when that day comes, the Board allow .355" Major loads in Limited, but only allow 126mm magazines in those calibers.  The capacity will be close enough to that of a 140mm .40 mag that we won't be sparking another equipment race.  Let the shooters decide if a .38 Super Major is better than a .40 Major in Limited without creating a feeding frenzy of gun and caliber changes, and planeloads of FedEx packages back and forth to gunsmiths across the land.

I know it means yet another rule, and more magazines, but its either that or obsoleting existing .40 guns for no good reason.

[Singlestack]

Shooter Grrl,

Thanks for the update. His answer implies that they are close to resolving the issue (this year maby). I wonder who does the SAAMI testing for USPSA?  I also wonder if it is against USPSA's rules somewhere to use a load that excedes SAAMI specs?  

Patrick,

You may have convinced to wait at least another year before buying a .40..........

[Shooter Grrl]

I don't expect the BOD of USPSA to allow .38 Super in Limited!  I believe the current regime is pretty dead set against obsoleting the .40!

Singlestack, you're safe to purchase one :-)

[Patrick Sweeney]

They're afraid of igniting another equipment race, having just gotten over the beating they took from the last one.  It can be dealt with, but the question is, will they?  Some of the International shooters want it very much, as they can't get .40 or .45, or can't reload.  (As I recall, the Germans are particularly hot for 9x19 Major.)

When the powders come out, and factory over the counter ammo makes Major, what will the BOD do?

[Shooter Grrl]

Okay Patrick, you've confused me now!!!  The BOD is trying to get data that says 9x19 is safe for major pf FOR OPEN :-)  I don't think they'll apply it to Limited, but I could be wrong!

[Singlestack]

Shooter Grrl,

Thats how I took Patricks post. I took it to mean he felt .355 loads would be major for everything one day and it made sense to me.

Sure would make a bunch of people mad if they did not limit mag length though......

[Patrick Sweeney]

The only way 9x19 could be declared safe for Open is if it makes Major within SAAMI specs.  If it is safe by them, why limit it to Open?

And as a much as I hate the idea of more mag length restricitons, it would be the only way to keep the equipment race under control.  If capacity is close tot he same, then it would be up to shooters to decide if a 135 gr .40 at Major (or 180) was better or worse than a 125gr .355" at Major.

Without capacity control, everyone will have to shoot 9/Super/whatever, for who could go into a stage with 18/19 round mags, when the guy next to them has 26 rounds?  (Actually, most of us could, but the pressure would be on for many shooters, and look at the 6" Limited situation as an example.)

[benos]

I could be wrong on this, but I think the "idea" behind not allowing 38/356 as Major in Limited is that it is not currently accepted that a 9mm is sufficient for a what the "Stock" gun class is "supposed" to repersent? We know, or it's obvious that today's Open guns are a joke, so I think the powers at large are just trying to preserve some semblance of what started the sport (in Limited Class).

be

[Singlestack]

I sure hope you are right BE.

[Patrick Sweeney]

The problem with technological advancement is that it goes where Physics takes it, not where our preconceptions would lead us.

I love my LW Commander.  Its been to Gunsite five times, rode through the hit and run with me, and settled two altercations without a shot.  Given the choice between it and a LW hi-cap loaded with Cor-bon 125's @ 1300fps, which would I chose?  (Is this a trick question?)

Open guns are what they are because we never said "this is too much, we have to draw the line."  If we want to draw the line in Limited, then say so, but don't hide behind the rapidly dissolving fiction of excessive pressure.  Or the quaint notion of the founders intent.  If we we had held to both, Open guns would still be .45's, and the founders intent would have us using stock 1911's with in the pants holsters.  Oh wait, IDPA does that, and look at the hard and fast rules they have to have to keep things "under control."

If we went to the founding principles, not only would Open guns and hi-cap Limited guns be gone, so would all the new holsters.  Anybody still have their gear from the early 1980's?

If we want to keep things under control, we need to take a step back and ask the first question:  "What are we trying to do here?"

[Chriss Grube]

I was going to build a new gun for next year but this thread got me asking questions. I emailed the Pres. he has some loads for 9mm that are to be pressure tested in the next month. We should have an answer shortly as to the 9mm major.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Mike is a shooter, something we have needed in the front office for some time.

[Chriss Grube]

It helps to have a no bullshit type guy for president. Too many politicians that weren't shooters caused a lot of the problems we face now. Vit has a published 147 gr load that makes major now out of a 4" barrel so I think it will be coming. He said to hold off a little on the new gun rather than a blanket NFW. It will bring the cost down considerably if made legal.

[Flexmoney]

If 9 is going to sometime be allowed in Major (I don't see a problem with that) there needs to be a lead-in time.

Let everyone know that in, something like, 3-4 years the 9 will be allowed to score major.  That way people can wear-out their current guns

[Chriss Grube]

NO! You can rebarrel your old gun and the savings in brass will pay for it in a year. That way I can build my new gun in 9 for next year.

[Patrick Sweeney]

"Rebarrel your old gun?"  If you have a gun you're using that uses super, you're better off sticking with Super.  If you're using 9x21 brass, why switch to shorter stuff unless you can get it free and the same brand?

The lead time allows for shooters to keep using their old one (whatever) while we try to figure out if there is an advantage to switching to something else.

I was thinking of a different tack; phased entry.  Allow (as an example time-line) 9x19 Major at first only with 140 gr or heavier bullets until the day after the 2003 Nationals.  then allow bullets no lighter than 135 gr until the day after the 2004 Nationals.  Phasing in lets us gradually accomodate the new loads and powders, and avoids the hassle of those persuing "every advantage real or imagined" jumping right to 9x19-115gr Major loads.

The .355" Major equipment would fal into two camps:  1911 and 9mm.  The 1911 shooters would stick with STI/SV/Para and single stack guns in some form of 38 Super.  (.38 Super Major for Limited 10?  someone will do it.)  The 9mm camp will face off with Glocks, Browning P-35's, S&W and Taurus and EAA, running 9x19.

Let the better shooter win.

(Edited by Patrick Sweeney at 7:14 am on Oct. 8, 2001)

[Chriss Grube]

Too much politics, It is either legal or not. We have too many rules now. Everytime you turn around there's a new rulebook. At this rate we'll be like IDPA. I don't see a big advatage over the super, ect. except in the price of brass. It isn't going to change anything in Limited the .40 minimum is still in place this only effects open. With the new SV IMM open guns you can shoot a super that feels somewhere between  a .22 and .380.