boo radley Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 It occurs to me, though I've only shot a 4 major matches this year -- the Florida Open, Summer Blast, and two "sectionals" -- in only one match did I see the IPSC classic target. This target was used at the FLOpen, and that was the ONLY target used, as opposed to the other matches which ONLY used the metric, or USPSA... Is this pretty much true of all major matches? It seems odd that they don't mix and match occasionally. IMO, it would be an interesting wrinkle on some stages -- especially some of the run and hose stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 2006 Area 1 had at least 2 stages with classic targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 (edited) Area 3 has had Turtle targets the last 3 years on some of their stages. Edited August 16, 2006 by Matthew Mink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 At Area 6 this year the shoot house stage used them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Limited Nats is using both targets - don't know about the Open, yet, but it will also use them, I'm sure. Both Nationals did last year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I have seen both targets used and I have no shooting problem with the use of the "Classic". One thing to remember is that you cannot mix the types on a stage, although I really wouldn't even have a problem from a shooting point of view with that. What I do have a problem with is any misguided attempt to make USPSA/IPSC politically correct. This for two reasons, most importantly, IT WON'T WORK! What we do will never be accepted a PC passtime. Secondly, it only results in dumbing down the sport and in light of reason number one, it just should not be attempted. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman33_99 Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I agree with Jim's take on the PC part. This sport won't ever be PC. I do like the different challenge the classic target brings to a stage. We use them at my club every couple of months on a stage or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I do like the different challenge the classic target brings to a stage. We use them at my club every couple of months on a stage or two. Me too - we just did a whole match of 'em (including the only classifier w/ "Classics")... The only thing that bugs the living hell out of me about them is the name.... they got the stupid names backwards.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo radley Posted August 16, 2006 Author Share Posted August 16, 2006 I stand happily corrected! I need to shoot more matches. I can see the concern, but IMO, I don't think injecting a stage or two with these targets would be considered pandering to PC elements. That would be very different from a blanket statement by an MD/staff that they would be using ONLY the Classic target, henceforth, so as not to offend (and I can't see that happening). Just thinking more of the shooting challenge on certain stages: the fast, up-close stages, in which everyone pretty much from D->GM is getting 90%+ of the hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 We used both at the Ohio match last year, and will be using both at this year's match as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
para45 Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Jim is there a rule that states you can not mix targets on a stage?? Also does that apply to a 3 gun stage?? Thanks, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Jim is there a rule that states you can not mix targets on a stage?? Also does that apply to a 3 gun stage?? Thanks, John 4.2.1 Gets a little more complicated in rifle/shotgun/multi-gun. Same rule number. None of them allow mixing classic/metric in a stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Jim is there a rule that states you can not mix targets on a stage?? Also does that apply to a 3 gun stage?? Thanks, John 4.2.1 Gets a little more complicated in rifle/shotgun/multi-gun. Same rule number. None of them allow mixing classic/metric in a stage. I wonder why? We get different size & shape steel in a single stage, why not paper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoupirate Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 In some countries and even some states in the USA, it is illegal to use any image that resembles a human as a firearm target. I don't care for Classic (Amoeba) targets, but I think that they are better than not being able to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 I was told that mixing targets on a stage makes scoring a bit weirder. No "B" zone on a Classic. We used both at Spudgun 2006 last May. Everyone seemed to enjoy seeing them...especially since we knew we would be seeing them again a couple weeks later at Area 1. I like them as they present a different shooting challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 (edited) In some countries and even some states in the USA, it is illegal to use any image that resembles a human as a firearm target. I don't care for Classic (Amoeba) targets, but I think that they are better than not being able to shoot. In which US states is it illegal to use a target that resembles a human? Edited August 18, 2006 by open17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoupirate Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 In March, 2002 the following lawsuit was filed in Mass. appealing the law. No. 00-2357 GUN OWNERS' ACTION LEAGUE, INC.; OUTDOOR MESSAGE COOPERATIVE, INC.; MASSACHUSETTS SPORTSMEN'S JUNIOR CONSERVATION CAMP INC.; A.G. GUNS & AMMO, INC.; MARK COHEN; JOHN DOE II; JAMES F. GETTENS; DANA H. CROWE; LORI CROWE; BRIAN E. DUNN; JOHN P. HEARSON; TOM LAROCHE; ANN D. LAROCHE; ROBERT L. WALTER; JOHN DOE I; GOAL FOUNDATION, INC., Plaintiffs, Appellants, v. JANE SWIFT, Acting Governor, Commonwealth of Massachusetts; THOMAS F. REILLY, Attorney General, Commonwealth of Massachusetts; JOHN DIFAVA, Colonel, Massachusetts State Police; MARTHA COAKLEY, District Attorney, Middlesex County, MA; EDWARD DAVIS, Superintendent, Police Department, Lowell, MA, Defendants, Appellees. HERE"S THE LAW: The statute reads as follows: Mass. Gen. Laws ch. 140, § 131(a). The colonel of state police may, after an investigation, grant a Class A license to a club or facility with an on-site shooting range or gallery, which club is incorporated under the laws of the commonwealth for the possession, storage and use of large capacity weapons, ammunition therefor and large capacity feeding devices for use with such weapons on the premises of such club; provided, however, that not less than one shareholder of such club shall be qualified and suitable to be issued such license; and provided further, that such large capacity weapons and ammunition feeding devices may be used under such Class A club license only by such members that possess a valid firearm identification card issued under section 129B or a valid Class A or Class B license to carry firearms, or by such other persons that the club permits while under the direct supervision of a certified firearms safety instructor or club member who, in the case of a large capacity firearm, possesses a valid Class A license to carry firearms or, in the case of a large capacity rifle or shotgun, possesses a valid Class A or Class B license to carry firearms. Such club shall not permit shooting at targets that depict human figures, human effigies, human silhouettes or any human images thereof, except by public safety personnel performing in line with their official duties. HERE"S THE SHOOTER"S SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT III. Freedom of Expression The plaintiffs allege that one provision in the Act unconstitutionally restricts their freedom of expression. According to the statute, gun clubs with Class A licenses "shall not permit shooting at targets that depict human figures, human effigies, human silhouettes or any human images thereof, except by public safety personnel performing in line with their official duties." Mass. Gen. Laws ch. 140, § 131(a). The plaintiffs argue that the law "censors images printed on targets . . . for the first time in world history." One plaintiff, Outdoor Message, Inc., distributes a target with the image of Adolph Hitler on its front, and an account of Hitler's restrictions on firearm use on the back. Those who buy the target shoot at the image of Hitler in order to express their opposition to tyranny and restrictions on gun use, and other political messages THE OUTCOME VI. Conclusion Like many citizens trying to comply with a complex regulatory scheme, the plaintiffs here describe difficulties in understanding the Act. Without minimizing their concerns, we conclude that this preenforcement challenge to the Act is not ripe for review for all of the reasons stated. Although justiciable, their varied First Amendment and Equal Protection challenges are meritless. We therefore affirm the decision of the district court. LOOKS TO ME LIKE THE LAW IS STILL ON THE BOOKS. Please Let me know if this has been overturned and Correct my information if I'm misinformed. Sad to think that Gun Contol Laws trump the 1st Ammendent in MASS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Time for a bit of clarification. You need to read that law in its entirety, not just skim it or read indirect reports. The law in question, http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-131.htm contains the following : ...The colonel of state police may, after an investigation, grant a Class A license to a club or facility with an on-site shooting range or gallery ... Such club shall not permit shooting at targets that depict human figures, human effigies, human silhouettes or any human images thereof, except by public safety personnel performing in line with their official duties... This means that the provision requiring clubs to ban such targets applies only to clubs which hold a "Class A Licens to Carry Firearms (Class A LTC)". Yup, a club can apply for a License To Carry Firearms. No, it doesn't make any sense to me either. No USPSA affiliated club, and as far as I know, no club in the state, has applied for a Massachusetts Class A LTC. There is simply no reason to. A club holding a Class a LTC may permit someone to fire a high capacity handgn who only holds a permit for a rifle or a low capacity handgun while under the supervision of a holder of the proper class of license for the firearm being fired. This provision is absolutely unnecessary since MGL http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-129c.htm (paragraph "m") provides for the lawful use of a firarm under the direct supervision of the license holder. The chairman of the MA Gun Control Advisory board has confirmed the irrelevance of this target ban by stating that the law only applies to clubs holding a "Club LTC." The MA legislator has never been good at creating "well crafted" gun laws. For example, there was a brief period of time where it was illegal to sell a firearm that did not pass a lab test certifying that it would go off it dropped onto concrete (that one got corrected quickly). Another example is non-citizens. Non-citizens legally living in MA can only get a license for a low capacity rifle (like a Barrett 50bmg - no deadly AR's for these resident foreigners), but a non-citizen living elsewhere in the US, or even overseas, can mail-order a MA handgun license. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 (edited) Another reason not to mix the targets on a single stage is that certain target presentation angles may make it impossible for the shooter to know what type of target he/she is shooting at, and the scoring zone are different. Imagine a stage where you might only see that center of a target through a port. If you can't see its edges you don't know its shape so where do you aim? Yes good course design can fix that but its is a lot easier to just not mix them. Edited August 18, 2006 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R/T Performance Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Targeting ed and Mi state both had one classic stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Another reason not to mix the targets on a single stage is that certain target presentation angles may make it impossible for the shooter to know what type of target he/she is shooting at, and the scoring zone are different. Imagine a stage where you might only see that center of a target through a port. If you can't see its edges you don't know its shape so where do you aim? Yes good course design can fix that but its is a lot easier to just not mix them. If all I can see is the center of the target, its shape is immaterial. Aim for the center of the target. I think the challenge of shifting from one type/shape target to another is a very good shooting challenge/opportunity. Same reason to have targets with portions blocked off or covered by no-shoots or inverted. Shape then becomes immaterial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoupirate Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Thanks for the clarification Rob. I stand corrected, even though I thought I had done my homework. Glad that we can share and learn here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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