Classifier / Stage 3

[Mark Perez]

Happy New Year to all,

We ran a classifier this past weekend and some questions[arguments] came up regarding the use of and shooting around the barricade on stage 3.

IDPA rules stipulate that a shooters feet must be behind vertical cover when provided . Does that mean that the feet must stay planted behind the barricade or does the shooter have the option to exit and  'pie around' the cover to engage the far side targets?

Thus exposing a leg outside the barricade .

[Prior to and after the mandatory reload].

On string 2 :

Rules say the gun is considered loaded when the magazine hits home - or words to that effect .

Can the shooter retain the original magazine  "on the run" to the forward position or must they secure the mag PRIOR to advancing?

May the shooter use BOTH sides of the barricade ,prior to the mandatory reload??

I can't find anything related to these 2 issues on the IDPA website and have my fingers crossed that info@idpa.com will respond to my email.

How are you guys and gals out there doing it?

Thanks in advance ,

MP

Phx Az

[Nik Habicht]

    According to the latest version of the IDPA rulebook, "a procedure penalty is assessed when the competitor does not follow the procedures set forth in the course of fire description."

    One of the examples cited is "The competitor’s foot touches the ground outside the shooting box at the barricade on Stage 3 of the Classifier.  One procedural penalty is assessed regardless of the number of shots fired."  So it would seem that you cannot step out of the box as you slice the pie.

    Another example cited is "failure to do a tactical re-load when specified. If the competitor makes an honest attempt to retain the partial magazine and it falls from the competitor’s pocket or pouch after he/she has begun to move to another firing point, no penalty should be assessed."  This would seem to loosely suggest that the magazine must be secured prior to moving.  However, the gun is considered loaded when you seat the fresh magazine or close the revolver's cylinder, so you should be able to leave cover without violating the leaving cover with an unloaded gun rule.  

    In the FAQ section it gets really interesting.  "HOW DO I HAVE TO RETAIN THE PARTIALLY LOADED MAGAZINE AFTER A TACTICAL LOAD? To be in the “spirit” of the stage, you must retain the magazine in one of the following ways PRIOR to the firing of the first shot after a tactical load: pants pocket, vest pocket, jacket pocket, waistband or magazine pouch. The use of specially designed pockets, shirt pockets, or holding the magazine in the hand or teeth is NOT permitted."  This answer says that the magazine must be secured PRIOR to the first shot being fired, so it would seem that you can advance and stow the magazine at the same time.  Just make sure that the magazine is secured before you fire the first round from the barrel.  

   I'd like to hear an answer from IDPA on that question.  Is that the question you posed?  Jim? Bill? Anyone? Where's Bueller when you need him?

[Mark Perez]

Nik ,thanks for taking the time to respond.

If  I do hear from them ,I'll post the results or forward same to anyone that wants it.

MP

(Edited by Mark Perez at 1:55 pm on Jan. 2, 2002)

[Duane Thomas]

The rule book states specifically that you may begin to move forward as soon as the fresh magazine snaps into place on an auto pistol, or the cylinder closes on a revolver. That means it's permissible to run forward to the barrel while securing the partially empty magazine from the tac-load.

It's not permissible to step a foot outside the Bianchi barricade's box, though you can put your foot on it as long as it doesn't touch the ground outside the box.

I'm not sure I understand the "Is it permissible to use both sides of the barricade before the mandatory reload?" question. The stage description for that string says to shoot all three targets before the reload from "either side of the barricade" which I've always interpreted to mean they don't care if you use the left or right side but you'll be doing all your shooting around that side. I suppose it's theoretically possible that also means you could fire some of your shots around the right, some around the left, but why would you want to? It's going to be one hell of a lot slower than simply firing them all around one side.

[Bill]

Mark,

I agree with what Nik & Duane said. You can't step outside the barricade. I don't see where you could get a penalty for stepping up on the board but I can't remember seeing anyone doing it.

On string 1 you are shooting from both sides of the barricade and must stow the mag before shooting after the reload.

On string 2 it is OK to stow the mag as you move forward to the barrel. The directions say shoot from either side of the barricade not both. I guess you should get a final say from IDPA HQ. I don't see where you could gain any benefit doing it though. You will waste more time switching sides than shooting from the awkward position.

So, how did everybody do on the classifier? I can understand trying to find better ways to shoot Stage 3. It is the downfall of many.

Bill Nesbitt

[midvalleyshooter]

We shoot it the way Bill, Nik and Duane describe. Stage 3 is the toughest stage. 20 yard shots from a lean to the off side are where most folks have problems. I have shot the classifier 3 times in 3 years. Twice I just made expert by a couple of seconds in SSP and once in CDP.

Keith

[Mark Perez]

An IDPA Area coordinator had  a response within 24 hours . In a nutshell , he confirmed DT's response.

String 1.

  Feet must remain in the 'box'.

String 2.

 A. May use both sides of cover prior to the mandatory  reload [shooters option]. Still remaining inside the box.

 B. Gun must be fully loaded PRIOR to moving forward to the barrel , the magazine can be secured "on the run".

Next time on the range -

I'm going to compare hits/times using single and both sides for the stage 3/string2 stage.Just to satisfy my own curiosity...

Thanks for the help .

MP

[jmc9x23]

Which AC was that.

You must engage 3 targets from each side of the barricade while keeping your feet behind the barricade. If you want to try to keep track of which ones that you shot from which side thats up to you. But as the SO I'm not going to try to keep track and you'll finish with a proceedural or a FTDR. The spirt of the stage is 3 targets from the left or right side then a tac reload and then 3 targets from the opposite side from the one you choose first. I've never seen anyone do it any differently.

[Nik Habicht]

Joe,

I think you misread the original question.  The first part of the question was about feet in the box.  The second part of the question was specifically about the second string on the third stage.  Since the directions tell you to engate t1-t3 from either side of the barricade, make a tactical reload behind cover, then advance and engage t1-t3 from around either side of the barrel, why couldn't you use both sides of the barricade or barrel if you wanted to?  I suspect that it would be slower to use both sides; i.e. why would anyone want to?, but isn't this in fact allowed under the current rulebook on this string?

[jmc9x23]

Sorry, I misread it. Thanks Nik. You can retain the mag on the run, but it must be stored before the first shot is fired after the reload.

Your right Nik, It would take extra time to engage from both sides of the barricade before the reload. Thats probably why I've never seen it done.

[Duane Thomas]

It's really difficult to nail down the "spirit of the stage." Realize that the "spirit of the stage," that may seem so obvious to you, is simply your impression, i.e. it's what your particular mindset is capable of perceiving. This may bear little relationship to what anyone else, including the designer of the stage himself, perceives.

There's also the time honored concept of "no competitive advantage." If a shooter does something differently than the way it's "always" done, well the first thing you ask yourself is, "Is it legal under the stage description?" Also into that you must factor, "Did doing it that way give them a competitive advantage?" Now, this is really a moot point in this instance, because the rules as written would allow you to engage the three targets in a "some from the left, some from the right" fashion. It's legal. Period, end of discussion. But even before we start worrying about the legality of it, we have to ask ourselves, "Would doing it that way give someone a great advantage over other people shooting all three targets around the same side?" And the answer is no, quite the opposite as a matter of fact. So who cares?

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 6:17 pm on Jan. 10, 2002)