Is it a ledge or an indention?

[Dowter]

I just sent John Amidon the following email for clarification of a rule.  I want to hear how everyone else would interpret it.

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I am thinking about making a modification to a frame on an extended dust cover frame I would like to know if this is legal.  This isn't really a ledge but it comes close enough to it for me to ask before I do this to my gun.

I am going to be putting an indention in the extended dustcover where my weak hand thumb would rest.  It would be like as if the frame was made out of clay and I pressed my thumb into it  during my natural freestyle grip.  I will also be putting checkering inside the indention to make sure my thumb stays in place.

The main reason for this is to keep my weak thumb in place.   This helps me to aim (by pointing with my thumb) and manage recoil (by keeping the gun recoiling straight up and down).  I already have skateboard tape where I where my weak hand thumb goes now but I want to take it to another level by putting in an indention.  The problem is that the indention might be considered a pseudo-ledge which is not allowed.

Your help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

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P.S. For the brianenos.com forum.  In terms of improvement of shooting, what do you think of my idea?  I know this question is off topic but it's closely related to my original question.  Thanks.

[Storm]

Personally, I wouldn't do it. I've recently been trying to unlearn the habit of placing the weak thumb on the frame. You have too much tendency to "steer" the frame with the left thumb and pull shots. If you touch the frame at all, you want to touch very lightly.

As far as legality, you should be able to accomplish it legally by cutting some sort of "cosmetic" serration into the frame on both sides. I've seen vertical stripes, horizontal stripes, etc. They've all been legal.

[Dowter]

I just got a reply from John Amidon.

Dear sir:

What you describe would be allowed in Open Division, but not in

Limited, Limited 10 or Production divisions.

DVC,

John

So that settles that.  I exclusively shoot limited.  I'll just stick with the skateboard tape.

As to whether this is a good idea or not, I have gotten amazing results with placing my weak thumb on the frame.  I see it as an extension of keeping equal pressure on both sides of the gun.  Without my thumb on the frame, my gun wants to cant to the left (ESPECIALLY in recoil).  With my thumb on the frame and pointing straight at the target - I feel that I have perfect balance between left and right.  The gun now perfectly recoils up and down.  Before, I would get about 90% within the a-zone width but always to the left.  Now I get about 90% within a 3-4 inch width (and about (50% within a one inch width) and they're no longer going left.  These stats are at 25 feet and with .21 to .24 splits.

My big fear is that despite this seeming to work for me - that it's still wrong.  I just got Todd Jarret's video and he denounces "steering with the thumb" too.  But I don't really see it as steering.  I steer with my legs and torso(you know - the tank turret method).  It's more of an aiming-indexing (I point with the weak thumb)  and recoil control technique.

[Flexmoney]

Dowter,

You are steering with your thumb.  Plain Jane simple.

My question is...how do you get it out on the extended dustcover in the first place?  My weak-hand thumb would be touching the slide stop unless I broke the weld between my right and left palms.  Or, maybe I could get there by putting my finger on the front of the triger guard.  How are you doing it?

[Dowter]

Simply put - I have giant gorilla hands.

The beginning of what would be my thumb print starts about 1/2  inch after the slide release.  It wouldn't get on to  the extended part of a SV dust cover but would get on a dust cover.  I brought up the SV because of how it is square at the bottom and not round (like a Para) giving the possibility of make a thump imprint.

Also yes

I do have a weld between my left and right hand,

I am using  a double stack gun

I do not have my weak index finger on slide stop

I do have my weak thumb extended all the way out.  My thumb and the top of my forearm make a straight line and my hand extended does make a 45 degree angle.

I should probably post a picture of my grip for people to critique.

[PaulW]

Flex, Plain Jane is he may not be steering....just because your thumb rest on the frame does not mean you are steering.....it could but is not a definate.  I don't have big hands by any stretch, however my thumb does not come close to the slide stop, but rather well in front.  People are different and different things.  I know Brian talks about not touching the frame with the offhand thumb, which I have tried, but I just find it more comfortable leaving my thumb there, just not adding the side pressure like some people tend to do.

[Flexmoney]

Splits,

I wasn't basing that so much on where his thumb was...more so on his results.  And, I am thinking long-term.  Just my opinion.  Which is probably worth less than it cost.

[38supPat]

Actually you're both right, with the thickness of the frame on an extended dustcover frame, it is likely that you will touch, I do with my Open gun 'cuz of the scope mount, but you do not want any inward pressure, skateboard tape, checkering or anything else is a bad idea because it will lend itself to being pressed on.

Dowter: the reference to steering is not about going target to target as you would with your legs. It refers to steering the gun in recoils, watch the front sight blade throughout its entire travel, from the point the shot is released, while the sight lfts out of the rear notch, hits the top of the recoil cycle (see if you can see the bump of the slide cycling) and then returning to the notch. Do you see the sights track straight or does it circle to the right? Does it return to the notch straighaway, or does it detour. Ignore where the hits on target are, they are irrelevant for this, just watch exactly what the sight does during its arc in recoil. If your shots were going left before then thats where the sights were. Direct the FS back to the notch before firing the next shot. If you align the sights properly, you will always get A hits even with an incorrect or bad grip. Learn to read the sights and adapt your technique to what they are telling you, but where the sights are for each individual shot is more important than where your hands are.

Pat

[2alpha]

If you really want a place to rest your thumb why not just mill a nice oval slot in the frame? Lightning cuts are legal aren't they?

JJ