Nothing New Under The Sun!

[spook]

Mike, I agree that the changes have been minimal in revolver. The problem is that the main change in autoloaders (capacity) is very hard to change in revolver. And despite that, the 8-shot .357 wheelies have been one of the few improvements over the years.

I feel the one thing that could improve is the trigger, but after handling one of Randy Lee's miracles, I think humanity is already headed in the right direction

[shred]

The capacity limit has been a big factor in holding back the equipment race. Would IPSC have put an 8 or 10-round Limit on Limited, you'd see stuff that could have been made in 1911 still be competitive..

[R112mercer]

I agree with Mike and many other posters that what is fun about Revolver Division is the simplicity of the equipment and the challenge of tackling a stage with it.

Before this turns into "bash the other Divisions" post let me say this: I have never shot in any other Division, so I can't really comment on what it's like to play their game. I started in Revolver and I'm happy where I'm at.

That being said, I have a strong dislike for gadgetry. All too often I see guys at the range touting the next new thing! These are the same guys at the bottom of the score sheet who haven't been touting the same old thing! that improves scores: practice and attention to the fundamentals.

It blows my mind to see guys that have been playing this game for twice the time I have and don't know how to break down a stage, position their equipment, reload quickly, etc. Let alone use a scoresheet. But you can bet they have the Whiz-Bang 9000 Super Widget (now with extra tactical) from Blammo!

I'm not saying the other Divisions are populated with guys who only hang gear off their gun and Revolver is the ONE PURE DIVISION. I don't believe in that crap. Anywhere I see stuff like what I mentioned above I have an aversion to it, no matter what the Division. Get out there and shoot. Listen to the guys who are winning, they probably know what they're talking about and are usually willing to share. Practice. And watch that front sight!

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

This is not true of any other division. Think how radically the other division guys' equipment has changed over that same approximate span of time! Whole new categories of firearms have arisen to fulfill a need, real or perceived.

Any thoughts on this?

With all due respect, the other divisions with the exception of Glock type pistols, still use a basic but improved design of the 1911 for the most part. Yes there are S&W semi autos and Xds but for the most part I see the 1911 style as the dominant in at least three divisions.

With the lack of popularity in the revolver division, there has not been the explosion of revolver smiths to make the little extras that are made for the 1911s. The custom revolver for IPSC/USPSA has not taken off as it did for PPC, Steel, ICORE, etc. The custom revolver market is still small potatoes in the overall scheme.

Some minor new products that are worth mentioning are

the Ed Brown thumb release for S&W,

the SDM Thumb release,

the Weigand sight base,

the Weigand rear sight,

the Millet rear sight,

the SDM Fiber Optic,

the S&W classic set up for changing front sights,

various spring kits for "drop in performance",

LPA rear sight

Ball Détente lock up

Ron Power various parts

New style holsters

Moon clip loaders and unloaders,

New style moon clip holders by Blade tech,

Randy Lee Hammer

Hearthco Moon clip

What the revolver market has not seen yet, is the influx of a parts changer on every corner ready to install any or all of these items and make the revolver of your dreams. Many of the changes are done in cellars or garages by the end user.

The basic Revolver design is still there as is the basic 1911 design. If the Revolver revolution continues to progress, Randy will have a lot more competition

Regards,

Edited August 10, 2006 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[AFDavis11]

Well, you've got a good point. I started in Lim-10 but left because my equipment sucked. I jumped into Production, even though I thought the rules were stupid, and I enjoyed it a lot. It felt very "stock car" racy. Even playing field, and enjoyed it a lot. Turned out I was mostly wrong (some of the rules still suck a little).

I avoided revolver for a while (at the high end), because there actually is an equipment race. It just isn't purchased, its crafted in your own home. Tuning a revolver is much more important than you guys give it credit. I have a box/stock N frame in the safe with a 15 pound trigger.

It seems to me neither the rules nor the economics, support advancements for revolver. The subset of revolver shooters, shooting USPSA, is probably a tenth of a percent of total sales. Does the future look any better?

I don't see any demographics expert suggesting that revolver shooters want high tech advancements. Thats like titanium wheeled horse buggies. I see it as we are such a small demographic that anyone spending research money on technical advancements would be throwing away good money.

The next technical advancement I see is a spring loaded cylinder that ejects the moonclips automatically.

[Carmoney]

With all due respect, the other divisions with the exception of Glock type pistols, still use a basic but improved design of the 1911 for the most part. Yes there are S&W semi autos and Xds but for the most part I see the 1911 style as the dominant in at least three divisions.

I get what you're saying......but take an original WWI 1911 and set it next to a state-of-the-art Limited gun like Sam's Benny Blaster. Same fundamental design at the core, but there's a huge difference between the two in terms of handling, capacity, etc. And I'll go out on a limb and say the ol' GI hogleg would be completely non-viable as a competition piece in today's IPSC world, regardless of the skill of the shooter. This is even more true when you compare the original 1911 to a good Open gun with a C-More.

Now take a Model of 1955 (pre 25-2) and set it next to the guns we shoot in Revolver division today. Other than minor stuff like grips and sights, there's virtually no difference. As I said above, a good shooter could pick up the 1955, stick on some decent grips (please don't make me call them stocks, only fussy old collectors call them stocks), maybe do 20 minutes worth of fast and dirty action work, and go win Revolver division at any match in the world.

I understand the economics of all of this. I also happen to think S&W managed to do a better job of "getting it right the first time" with the N-frame wheelgun than Colt did with the 1911 Government Model. Hell, the whole custom pistolsmithing industry was born because the 1911 sucked so bad when you pulled it from the box, right? But originally, the shooters demanded the gunsmithing--these days, the gunsmithing industry drives the trends to a large extent. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, because I think Limited and Open guns are really cool! Still, I like knowing I'm competing in a division where I can be pretty certain I'm never going to lose a match because somebody has some new "trick rig" in his bag, and I like knowing I'm not going to have to go out and buy some new gizmo tomorrow just to try to keep up.

Production and Single-Stack have some of that same "stock car" appeal to me.

[AFDavis11]

I think I should have every right to expect a motorized cylinder installed in the next decade. :-)

A lot of the "advancements" in competition guns are limited to the venue its used in and the rules governing its competition.

I think 8 and even 10 shot revolvers with Ti cylinders would get built if there were no restriction on rounds in the gun.

I think if you simply had an Open Revolver Division you'd start seeing guys with Open Revolvers and likely thier advancements would be different (better?) than the Open auto guys version.

Its also a "support" issue. "Open" the rules and the guns will follow.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I get what you're saying......but take an original WWI 1911 and set it next to a state-of-the-art Limited gun like Sam's Benny Blaster. Same fundamental design at the core, but there's a huge difference between the two in terms of handling, capacity, etc. And I'll go out on a limb and say the ol' GI hogleg would be completely non-viable as a competition piece in today's IPSC world, regardless of the skill of the shooter. This is even more true when you compare the original 1911 to a good Open gun with a C-More.

Now take a Model of 1955 (pre 25-2) and set it next to the guns we shoot in Revolver division today. Other than minor stuff like grips and sights, there's virtually no difference. As I said above, a good shooter could pick up the 1955, stick on some decent grips (please don't make me call them stocks, only fussy old collectors call them stocks), maybe do 20 minutes worth of fast and dirty action work, and go win Revolver division at any match in the world.

BUT, take a 1911 from the mid 50s and the same revolver from that period and I think we have a horse race Put Jerry and TGO out on the range with both shooting over 2 days one shooting the revolver Friday and 1911 Saturday and the other shooting 1911 Friday and Revolver Saturday and I think you would see about the same results.

I agree totally it is the shooter. But it is the shooter in both scenarios. The above would be very interesting to see.

Gary

[Bubber]

I think the improvements and or additions to the Revo shooting is extremely localized. Not much news of stuff gets out beyond the local level. Any improvement takes time and refinement. And if there is no way to gauge what has taken place (no competition) the refinements are forgotten. I use speedstix but in USPSA there is not much use in them as the 25 and 625 are prevalent and do not need a speedstix. They are designed for the longer cartridges such as the 38 specials and you only need them for the eight and seven shot guns. Which usually not used in USPSA. There has been interest in them where I shoot and can be seen. But Phil has since quit making them.

[Carmoney]

BUT, take a 1911 from the mid 50s and the same revolver from that period and I think we have a horse race

I couldn't disagree more. Those things were jammamatics with tiny sights and awful triggers, and with no beavertails, painful to shoot with a correct hold on the gun. Remember, the mid-'50s was before even the first-generation guys like Jim Clark, Austin Behlert, and Frank Pachmayr began to figure out all the wonderful refinements that make the 1911 such a great gun today.

By contrast, the 25-2 has never needed much done.

I use speedstix but in USPSA there is not much use in them as the 25 and 625 are prevalent and do not need a speedstix. They are designed for the longer cartridges such as the 38 specials and you only need them for the eight and seven shot guns.

My solution has been to shoot shorter cartridges in my 8-shooters: .38 Short Colt in one of my 627s and 9mms in the other. They drop right in real nice!

[aerosigns]

I agree with Mike that no matter how much tinsel you hang on the pine tree, ultimately the pine tree never changes.

In other classes besides changing the tinsel, they change from pine, to spruce, to artificial....

I was listening to Matt Burketts radio show the other day, and he had Mike Dalton from the Steel Challenge on. Dalton had an interesting comment about why our sport hasn't grown in popularity with the rest of the world. This may also apply to Revo's.

He said that when you think of NASCAR, you think about your favorite driver (Richard Petty here ). When you pick up a racing magazine that driver will be on the cover not his car. When you buy a golf magazine Tiger Woods will be on the cover, not his golf ball.

The shooting community doesn't get it. When you buy the latest copy of a gun mag, you will see a gun on the cover. But when was the last time they had a big picture of Mike Carmoney on the cover, and a 6 page spread on how HE drives the gun.

Hopefully I am not to hazy here, but this may relate to Revos, in that once you take the 'new' gun thing out of it, we only know the big shooters within our community. The outsiders don't look at our shooters and realize the talent and experience it takes to play.

Ask a semi shooter to name 2 Open, or Limited shooters. Ask the same person to name 2 Revo shooters. If we could advance the names of people, then we would get the mass appeal, then we might get the interest to reinvent the wheel'gun'.

[AFDavis11]

Brilliant! Additionally, I would find it fascinating to know how Mike "drives" the gun. Watching J. Rod and D. Carden at the SummerBlast was amazing; so many ways to do the same thing. Watching Rudy W. shoot Open revolver was heart stopping; I turned to hear who was using an fully automatic gun on the stage behind me. When I saw him with a revolver my mind took a long time to process what I was seeing and hearing.

Edited August 13, 2006 by AFDavis11

[spook]

The shooting community doesn't get it. When you buy the latest copy of a gun mag, you will see a gun on the cover. But when was the last time they had a big picture of Mike Carmoney on the cover, and a 6 page spread on how HE drives the gun.

Very true and a shame indeed. Every gun related site/forum is more and more about the latest gadget instead of techniques on shooting or asking good shooters how they do it. Even this great place here:

Our members have made a total of 414813 posts

7607 of those posts are in the Shooting Technique Forum. That's not even 2%

I saw the same thing at Rob Leatham's site. People got the chance to ask him questions and most of those questions were about what bullet weight he shoots and how his gun is set up

Sorry for the drift...

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

But when was the last time they had a big picture of Mike Carmoney on the cover

That's a down right scary thought.

Edited August 13, 2006 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Carmoney]

Hey man, I was actually on the front cover of a shooting magazine once, a long time ago! I'll attach a link to a .pdf below so you guys can have a good laugh. There's a story behind it you need to understand, though....

Back in the pin shooting heyday, we discovered that a good wide stance helped you control the recoil of a 12-guage shotgun while shooting bowling pins, and the lower you could get, the less time it took to raise the barrel off the rail at the start buzzer and start shooting. So one year at the NAPSA Nationals, between runs, I said, "Hey guys, look at my secret shotgun technique!!" and squatted clear down so I could have the bead right on the first pin while still touching the rail with the gun as required.

This is not how anybody actually shot it, of course--it would've probably pushed me over if I actually tried it--but it was funny at the time. Clare Dixon snapped a photo and submitted it along with an article to PSI (Practical Shooting International) Magazine, and just to have a little fun pimping me, Al Laubenthal put the picture on the front cover. So the whole thing was actually just a gag--here, take a look:

PSI Magazine

The second page of the .pdf is an example of the revolver column I wrote for PSI for awhile, taking over from Jack Parisi after he became the Exec. Editor. This was one of two regular wheelgun columns in that magazine, the other was written by Mike Higashi, of ICORE fame. Other regulars included Walt Rauch, Patrick Sweeney, Massad Ayoob......hell, even Jerry Miculek himself wrote an article one time! Note I didn't try to scan in the whole article, it's not particularly interesting or pertinent to anything these days--still, it shows you what can be done to stir up interest in wheelgunning given a proper forum. (Plus, it's pretty funny to look back at the "big eyeglasses" phase the world went through around 15 years back....)

PSI had lots of non-content problems that led to its unfortunate demise, but it was fun while it lasted.

Anyway, I guess this is my way of saying I completely agree that gun magazines should feature me on the front cover.

Edited August 13, 2006 by Carmoney

[revchuck]

Mike - Cool hair.

[Northern Xtreme]

To me the fun of revolver class is shooting the six shooters. I have no interest in shooting 8 or 10 shot revolvers.

If revolver class allowed more than six rounds I'd go back to shooting limited 10 with my 1911.

I personally do not care about seeing further evolution of the wheel gun. Like someone else said, to improve a revolver much more is to turn it into an automatic.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Hey man, I was actually on the front cover of a shooting magazine once, a long time ago! I'll attach a link to a .pdf below so you guys can have a good laugh.

As I stated. Scary but with the hair and the owl glasses definately a spot for humor

Now, maybe we can get that as your new AVITAR

[Carmoney]

Our members have made a total of 414813 posts

7607 of those posts are in the Shooting Technique Forum. That's not even 2%

Exactly, Spook.

And perhaps the real point of my original post is that success in this division has nothing to do with fancy and expensive accessories.

Mike - Cool hair.

It's shorter now. Since Fuzz Harding retired and closed up the barbershop, I have to do all my own hairstyling.

[Tom Mainus]

How could you miss a bowling pin with those glasses.

[spook]

Our members have made a total of 414813 posts

7607 of those posts are in the Shooting Technique Forum. That's not even 2%

Exactly, Spook.

And perhaps the real point of my original post is that success in this division has nothing to do with fancy and expensive accessories.

Exactly, the need for accessoires and modifications needs to come from enhancing the shooting (or at least that is my point of view )

[JTR]

I think that if you take away the "upgrades" in the other classes the same shooters would win too. Most of the "trick" things are way overated.

Good sights, 100% reliable, good grip, and a good trigger and you are set, in any division, IMO.

I agree. There is a local USPSA shooter who is extremely good in Open Class and this year went to revolver and is still wiping the floor with everyone else. A good shooter is a good shooter.

The original attraction to revolver shooting for me was the lack of technology applied.

...But I know Jerry M forearms...

I like the lack of technology too, just down and dirty, simple, six shots and that’s it. We’re talking about USPSA though, and I haven’t played that game yet.

My forearms are a bit bigger than Jerry’s, maybe there’s hope.

[Carmoney]

We’re talking about USPSA though, and I haven’t played that game yet.

Aw dude, you gotta try shooting USPSA with a wheel. It's a helluva challenge, but it's really fun!

[pskys2]

After competing with a Revo in USPSA, shooting with an Auto (even L10) just seems boring. It's been 3 weeks since I shot Revo, I've been using an old 1911, and I'm starting to get the shakes.

C'mon JTR take the leap. If you've got another good shooter with a Revo, buddy up with him. Pick his brain and start havin' some fun.

Good Luck

[JTR]

Yea, c'mon, all the other kids are doin it...

Alright. So, you guys who shoot revolvers in USPSA, how many reloads (spare full moon clips) do you carry in a given stage?