Arms-length Targets

[tightloop]

Nah...I have shot all over the country... the South imparticularly, and seen some really silly stuff flaunted by the inventor as just basic USPSA....and I know silly when I see it...(insert cornpone voice here)...I been to two Puerto Rican weddings, a goat roping and several destruction derbies and they were still silly..

Much of your preference depends on what you were "brought up" shooting and your exposure to this sport before, during and after the split with IPSC....it changed dramatically and IMO not all of it for the better..but we've ridden that horse till he won't go any more...Hence, my appreciation for lower round count stages with bi-partial emphasis on speed and accuracy...max rounds about 16...and you probably are more accustomed to shooting several arrays of targets with lots of movement and over 25 rounds...to each his own....

I think a lot of it depends on the age, shooting background and tenure in the sport of the MD putting on the matches...also his time devoted to the task, his help with the match, and how long he has been doing the MD's job..burn out is certain and quality goes down with the burnout factor encroaching rapidly...

Hope you enjoy the SC match and shoot well..I will try to do the same here..although that is getting close to dove season and I may be tuning up for that at the clays range...lol

[shred]

Here's a 9 round COF a little BIPSC (Sorry Ara), but a ton of fun

[raz-0]

it takes time and creativity, and sometimes those are hard to come by.

Bubblegum vs. "REAL"

hoser course vs. skill challenge.

You know what? Speaking as a guy who gets stuck making up stages, I REALLY don't care about what you prefere if you are only going to tell me what you don't like without getting more graphic about what you DO like. Getting the gist of what people don't like is easy. What people need details on is what was a good stage, and what made it good. It's a much harder trick to figure out.

Just from ericW, we got some solid examples of "bad"

1) clusters of X targets through ports repeating the same shooting task over and over within a stage and Cof.

2) havng more than one bill drill in a given match.

bgary's "bad" (and I'll give him points for summarizing a particular deisgn trap very well).

3) a lot of ports, and little or no creativity... which means all we have done is move the boxes onto walls

However, everyone seems to get all hand-wavy and vague when it comes to saying what works.

1) test a variety of skills. (yah, but how about some good tricks for keeping a stage solid while trying to do this)

2) be able to shoot it amny ways (a LOT simpler said than done)

Once again, bgary contributed a good example with enough info to understand how the stage was simple, and could be shot multiple ways without it being easily "broken" by gamers. Although from his description not a proper freestyle stage.

Here's an example. Several years ago at a club match, there was a stage that consisted of two full paper targets at about 10 yards. On either side of the array were two stacked poppers (one behind the other). The *back* popper of each pair, activated a drop turner on the *opposite* side of the bay. The course description simply said "two each on T-1 and T-2, reload, two each on T-1 and T-2. engage all other targets as and when visible". The stage was a HOOT to shoot.... there were as many different ways to approach it as there were shooters. It was a challenge for GMs, it was shootable by beginners. It didn't take up a big bay. It didn't require a lot of props or walls, or a lot of setup. It was fun to shoot, fun to watch. Oh... and it was a test of *shooting* ability, and a test of your *own* ability to know - and push - your limits. Which is, I think, what a stage should be.

So howabout more specifics onw hat you do like.

[shred]

Here's a few of the 9 and 16 rounders from the WS (they typically put a short and medium or two shorts in one berm). These were lighter on the activators and wierd positions than some, though the train did see some DQs. ShortAndMed.wmv

[bberkley]

I might still be considered to be a neophyte by some of the more venerable shooters that are sounding off in this thread, but I rarely find myself disliking the same things as have been espoused here.

I love drop turners, clamshell pop-ups, and courses be they long, medium, or short that make me work for the points. I don't mind props (I got to throw the grenade twice because the door-activated swinger didn't fall on my first chance). I dislike stages that are memory courses, too many swingers (6 on a stage is more than I think is necesary but for other reasons - like resetting it for the next shooter slows the squad down and makes the day longer). The star used to eat round after round, magazine after magazine the first time I shot it, suffice it to say, I no longer have that problem.

I understand that the COF is supposed to present a "Shooting Problem" not a "Prop Problem" or an "Athletic Problem". I don't shoot IPSC matches for "real world practice". I shoot them because I enjoy the challenge to improve, the healthy competition, and the people I am squadded with. My greatest reward from shooting is when I shoot the COF to the best of my ability, breaking down the stages and shooting them as I planned, or deviating from my plan if I see someone else doing something that looks more proficient and executing it properly.

I absolutely loathe the inevitable rules gaming, especially with some prop-specific stage and the lack of rules enforcement that leads to a stage being tossed. Especially if its one I shot well on, worse when I paid to shoot x amount of stages at a major match, and don't get to shoot all of them.....

I used to complain about mountain bike races when I did that. They always started uphill, which inevitably left my clydesdale-sized self off the back. I always said that someday I would run my own race that was downhill at the start and flat to the finish.

[kurtm]

And people wondered why I was against USPSA taking over 3-gun?? ( Last Nationals not withstanding).

I enjoy the blazing fast close stuff and the REALLY long stuf, but if it comes to one or the other I want it to be long. Since we are ranting away I would like to say I hate the grouping of 4. This really cuts down on the old stage design, and I HATE it. I have designed many stages for the local matches only to be shut down on this very thing. Hey shoot them from here or don't but don't whine that you can see more than 4 here!

For a long time I have stated that classifiers don't test the skills that our matches test, and I think that needs to be looked at, but ANYONE who is designing stages month after month and setting them up really should be cut some slack. All I see at our club is the same 3-5 guys setting up and that is it, so if it aint the way you want it ( long, short, big ,tall ) get out there and change it by setting up a stage or two!! KURT

[ChuckS]

... Since we are ranting away I would like to say I hate the grouping of 4. This really cuts down on the old stage design, and I HATE it. I have designed many stages for the local matches only to be shut down on this very thing. Hey shoot them from here or don't but don't whine that you can see more than 4 here! ...

Kurt,

It's not just a whine, it's the law: rule 1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3

Later,

Chuck

[Flexmoney]

I think Kurt was saying that the target where available from more than one location...not required. (more than 9 shots)

[Jim Norman]

Kurt said it.

If you aren't designing and building stages, you really don't have anything to complain about.

At our club, we generally have 6 local stages and one Classifer. Thank you to all that come out and design, help build and/or stay to tear down.

Eric likes walls. So do I. Construction barrier allows me to see the targets before I should so I can set up. It also makes catching a shooter that shoots through a wall much harder. Walls with ports. THey are easy to build, we use cheap stockage fence. You wouldn't buy it for home, but it is great on the range. 1/4" plywood on 2x3 frames also works.

Build your stages so that you have to move, but if you can see more targets from one place OK, just make them visible from a couple places. Allow us to decide how to shoot a COF. No Run here, shoot 6, run there shoot 6. We had a MD locally that just used boxes, and you had to shoot all from certain boxes. OK, on occassion. Also, just using walls doesn't really change this if you have to shoot everything from a port. All a port is, is a box hung on a wall.

Stars, Clamshells, Pop-Ups, Dropturners, Out and Backs all represent real challenges and real life possible presentations of targets.

Round counts, we are generally around 160. We'll have several large field courses, and a few mid-range courses.

Jim

[ChuckS]

I think Kurt was saying that the target where available from more than one location...not required. (more than 9 shots)

Flex,

I read the rule a few times and I pretty much agree with what you say. The second part of the rule makes me hesitate without seeing an entire COF.

" ...nor allow a competitor to eliminate a location or view in the

course of fire by shooting all available targets at an earlier

location or view."

It seems like every time I read a rule I come away with "Yeah, but"

Later,

Chuck

BTW: Come to Norco. Stage 5 usually has 2-4 targets in the 35-40 yard range. Sometimes you are treated to partial no-shoot coverage!

[tightloop]

Ok, lets talk about what we like..

The thing I like about classifiers is that you can mandate the shooter to perform different skills...classifiers should be about testing certain skills, not necessarily about freestyle shooting...You get to test their mandatory reloads, weakhand, stronghand, tabletop pickup, Z combos, lots of things...

I guess that is the problem I see with some of the current stages...they don't appear to test anything specific...just lots of close targets, hosing and running...not really anything special if you have 29 rounds and are athletic..

Shred: The Boom Kart looked like a hoot...and you don't really know how tough it might be if you have never fired while moving in a vehicle...and I don't mean shooting the signs while drunk as a teen...LOL

The stage from the World shoot with the rope reminded me of the Rodesian Wall at the Natl's in 79...kind of the same thing..hold on and shoot from each side while leaning..tough to do well..

[Flexmoney]

I read the rule a few times and I pretty much agree with what you say. The second part of the rule makes me hesitate without seeing an entire COF.

" ...nor allow a competitor to eliminate a location or view in the

course of fire by shooting all available targets at an earlier

location or view."

It seems like every time I read a rule I come away with "Yeah, but"

The second part of that rule is the problem child. I am having a discussion on this right now for one of the stage for the Ohio match (Level III, requires NROI approval).

That part of the rule is in direct conflict with "freestyle" (1.1.5). It also says you can't shoot "all" the targets and eliminate a later position/view. Further, I challenge anybody to define what earlier and later positions are in a course of fire that is "freestyle".

[Bigbadaboom]

I think that there are several different opinions on what makes a good stage among members of this sport. All I want is freestyle without calculus.

I like targets from 3 feet out to 25-30 yards. Farther than 30 yards with a pistol is not "Practical" IMHO (I can run to my rifle) but [anti p.c.mode] a pistol shoot out at 3 feet is the statistical norm, hence the 3 ft., 3 shots, 3 seconds statistical standard.[anti p.c. mode/].

Also, I keep reading that if you don't like the stage designs then get out there and do it yourself as if just because someone is willing to build a stage they should be allowed to build some P.O.S. and no one should be able to say anything about it. That's B.S.. I don't know about everyone else but I pay anywhere between 12-20 dollars per local match to shoot these stages and if I see something that's screwed up I'll say so.

[Jim Norman]

Daniel,

I, along with a couple others run our local match, I design one stage and build it, do squadding and RM duty. I also pay $15 to shoot. At another local club, I occasionally design a stage, almost always help build and, yes, you guessed it, I pay $15 to shoot, and that is because I am a member, otherwise I'd be paying $20!

Like you, if I see a stage that needs some help, I too will speak up. It seems to carry a bit more weight and cause a lot less hard feelings if the person speaking up is also one of the builders. If the people complaining don't do any more than contribute their $, then it sort of rankles those that got to the range two or three hours early so that the complainer could have a match to shoot.

Now, I am not saying that constructive criticism isn't welcome, just that this being a volunteer sport, it helps if the ones doing the moaning about stage designs have designed and built a few stages in recent memory.

That said, there are special cases. If the shooter cannot get to the match early but stays most of the time to tear down, that helps, big time. If the shooter travels to your match a long distance, but is a big contributor at his home club, likewise OK.

What I am saying and I think most would back me, is that the shooter that NEVER builds, NEVER tears down, Doesn't contribute to the match in any way other than his match fee, has very little capital to spend bitching.

Jim

[EricW]

What I like:

- Stages with ambiguity in how to approach them. Just like Bruce's classic example. I think people totally underestimate the intellectual appeal of the sport. No, we're not doing quantum physics, but that's what keeps it interesting.

- Stages that lack arrays.

- Stages that force me to change tempo. A 3 yard hoser backed up by a 15 yard headshot both of which I'm tempted to engage while on the roll is a good use of an arms-length target. 20 rounds at 6 feet as fast as you can pull the trigger strikes me as practically neanderthal IPSC.

- Field courses. I'm learning to love field courses. Just keep the round count sane.

- Things that force me to push. Do I engage one or both of those static papers before the swinger comes back around...? Hmm....Mike, Fred, and I usually end up within a second or so of one another and this will get me at least half a second...

Finally, I came up with something when I was down in the shop fixing my front sight - which shot loose for the umpteenth time <sigh...>

If Carl Lewis ran the Special Olympics, without a doubt, he'd have won every time. But...do you think Carl Lewis ever could have realized is full potential if all he did was compete in the Special Olympics?

Yeah, the best shooter will probably always win, but if anybody thinks that the modern trend toward uber-short, mondo-round-count courses of fire is doing anyone any favors, I think it's time for a reality-check.

Edited August 8, 2006 by EricW

[ipscbob]

Col. Cooper recently told Ron and I that his purpose for founding IPSC was to "discover, by means of open, unrestricted, diversified, realistic competition, the best weapons, equipment and technique to fulfill the lifesaving mission of the combat pistol".

Talk about a mission statement! And how does it differ from what we do today?

Honestly, I don't care. The thread is about looking forward, not back.

[toowide]

Maybe I haven't been shooting the sport long enough.(only 6 years). Maybe I don't shoot often enough. Four or five local matches a month and maybe 3 or four out of towners per year. Maybe I am not that picky and just enjoy going to the range, hanging with great people, and having fun shooting. Whatever it may be, I have yet to get tired of any sort of stage.(unless it is one where I have to shoot low ports... I am a Fluffy person...lol). My hat is always off to the people that design and builds stages because it is a lot of work. If there are too many matches that have courses you don't like and are ready to pack up and go home, then by all means go. I am not saying that to antagonize. Maybe it is time for a break and to sit back and remember why you started shooting.

[tightloop]

You cannot look forward without knowing what came before....and those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat those same mistakes...

So, before you get on your..I DON'T CARE... soap box..at least understand who started this sport you participate in, what their original ideas were, how the current differs from the past, and were the changes for the better or not...

You need to attend a school at Gunsite, a Natl's and a World Shoot and then perhaps you would care...or at least you would have a basis for your opinions, as it stands now you are without appreciation of the foresight, work, dedication, and abilities of people like Jeff Cooper and Ray Chapman and numerous others, like Mickey Fowler, Mike Dalton, Ross Seyfried, and our host Brian Enos...

You don;t have to agree with their ideas or principals, but voicing your disapproval in the manner you did, shows your total lack of respect and understanding about who and what spawned this sport...and when your contributions total even 10% of what any of the above mentioned people have given to this game, only then will snide comments and your personal likes and dislikes, warrant expression.

[EricW]

Maybe it is time for a break and to sit back and remember why you started shooting.

That's why I started this thread to begin with. Stage after stage of arm's length hose-a-thons were never part of "the dream."

[toowide]

Maybe it is time for a break and to sit back and remember why you started shooting.

That's why I started this thread to begin with. Stage after stage of arm's length hose-a-thons were never part of "the dream."

I agree that too many spray and pray stages get boring. I guess from what i have read here is we just have to keep variety in the stages and hope that there is enough for everyong to be challenged and have fun. That is what I have enjoyed the most in this sport. The challenge, the fun and the people you meet at matches. This is the only sport I have ever competed in where someone will give you advice that may lead to you doing better than them. Gotta love it.

[gino_aki]

I sure do like when threads like this one occur where you actually get to discuss concepts versus just nuts and bolts....

As one of the rotating MD's for our club, I'm probably as guilty as any other stage designer in putting together a match of last-minute lazy-a**ed stages that put all the targets at close range, although here on Maui you're never going to get through any COF over 11 rounds with one mag. I do notice that the newer shooters tend to breathe easier on them though, so they get to pay attention to the nuances of shooting rather than "whoa! that target's WAAAY out there"...or "jeez, that damned T-Star again, did I bring enough ammo?"

I'll have to admit I always thought of "shoot 'em as you see 'em" as having to have walls or other vision barriers which always means lots of set up...thanks for the pointing in another direction Bruce!

I also better read up on the rules revisions as I'm realizing a lot of my stages are probably illegal...fun but illegal.

What I like:

Omni-directional stages, where going the other way (usually lefty) might actually be faster.

No obvious reload points, i.e. no multiple arrays of ten shots.

Start positions that aren't "Standing facing (or back to) targets hands loose at sides. (wrists above respective shoulders.)

Timed fire.

Any stage with disappearing targets that will let you pick up time if you blow something else on the stage.

And believe it or not, stages that encourage or tempt a little gaming, like this one:

Gun_and_Run.DOC

[tightloop]

Great looking stage...the kind I love to shoot...make the reload mandatory and everyone gets to shoot heads up ....even better...LOL

[Jim Norman]

Not a great stage for a match, too much direction, not really "freestyle". You are told exactly where to shoot what and how.

HOWEVER!

This would actually be a really good classifier. It incorporates virtually all the basics. Turn and draw, Leave a position, eneter a position, shoot on the move, SHO and WHO.

It is repeatable and requires no special props. About the only things I would change are:

Make the starts opposite facing and oposite boxes, Shooter's choice. Mandatory Reload, One start Wrists above shoulders, other start hands at sides.

If need be, put a REALLY LARGE box extending from Box A to Box B, now all shots are fired from within boxes. You could make it VC and mandatory reload that way.

Great for a classifier.

I think, maybe

Jim

[38superman]

Col. Cooper recently told Ron and I that his purpose for founding IPSC was to "discover, by means of open, unrestricted, diversified, realistic competition, the best weapons, equipment and technique to fulfill the lifesaving mission of the combat pistol".

Talk about a mission statement! And how does it differ from what we do today?

Honestly, I don't care. The thread is about looking forward, not back.

With all due respect, I beg to differ.

The ideas that founded this organization cannot be ignored.

Like a ship on the ocean, we can sail in any direction we like but our foundation is what keeps the compass pointing north.

Without it we quickly lose our way.

What would happen to this country if we simply tore up the constitution and tried to move forward without its guiding principles?

I suggest that everyone re-read Col Coopers statement and pay special attention to some of the key words, "purpose", "realistic competition" "lifesaving mission", "combat pistol"

This is powerful stuff.

It should be read like a pledge of allegiance at the beginning of every board meeting.

That's about as much philosophy as I can take for one day.

I need another cup of coffee.

Tls

Edited August 9, 2006 by tlshores

[Nik Habicht]

Also, I keep reading that if you don't like the stage designs then get out there and do it yourself as if just because someone is willing to build a stage they should be allowed to build some P.O.S. and no one should be able to say anything about it. That's B.S.. I don't know about everyone else but I pay anywhere between 12-20 dollars per local match to shoot these stages and if I see something that's screwed up I'll say so.

Daniel,

the following is not directed specifically at you ---- but the comment was too good to pass up. Back when I was a novice stage designer and builder, I set up some crappy stages. I got negative comments from two different camps --- the bitchers and the constructive criticisers. The difference between them? The second group would take my original design and show me how to improve it to turn it into a good stage ---- on several occasions even in the last twenty minutes before walkthrough. If you see something that's a problem, by all means you should say something ---- but if you can diplomatically or not diplomatically propose a solution, that would be best ---- after all you don't want that novice stage designer to throw in the towel, do you?