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Cylinder End Shake


underlug

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All of a sudden the cylinder on my 625 is moving back and forth more than my other Smiths and I am getting misfires. The Yoke stud/frame connection is tight. The first irregularity I experienced was what I thought was a problem with my ejector spring. It jumped forward a couple of times and I couldn't close the cylinder.. I suspected it was fatigued and changed it out to no avail. I am now thinking that was a symptom, not a cause.

If it is cylinder end shake, where do the Powers bearings go and how do I get them there? Can there be other causes of the cylinder movement? Other cures? Thanks for the help.

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Order the end shake bearings. They make .004 and .002. I carry both in my bag just in case.

Take the cylinder off your 625 and take the ejector rod out. Take out the star. Place the bearing inside the cylinder. I normally put some oil on both sides of the bearing. Now reassemble.

Remember when taking the cylinder apart to put a dumby set of rounds in a moon clip before losening the ejector rod. This will prevent the two little stud pins that hold the star from breaking.

I'm sure someone will be able to tell what the exact cylinder cap should be and end shake. I forget the numbers right now but if you try the .004 and it's too tight put in a .002 instead.

(Technical huh?)

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Order the end shake bearings. They make .004 and .002. I carry both in my bag just in case.

Take the cylinder off your 625 and take the ejector rod out. Take out the star. Place the bearing inside the cylinder. I normally put some oil on both sides of the bearing. Now reassemble.

Remember when taking the cylinder apart to put a dumby set of rounds in a moon clip before losening the ejector rod. This will prevent the two little stud pins that hold the star from breaking.

I'm sure someone will be able to tell what the exact cylinder cap should be and end shake. I forget the numbers right now but if you try the .004 and it's too tight put in a .002 instead.

(Technical huh?)

For me, yes. I am mechanically challenged. Really appreciate the information. Basically, the shims go underneath the star? I have several .002s in stock.

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There's a reamer tool from Brownells that squares up the end of the yoke prior to installing the bearings........Page 143.....#713-030-000........

Go easy with this process ........You only want to make a few turns with light pressure.

Bearings are on the same page......

Dan Bagger

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I'm perplexed by the "all of a sudden" report. These things normally go gradually.

Have you examined the end of the yoke retaining screw? If the cylinder would not close, that would tell me the whole assembly was too far forward. :huh: The tip is spring loaded and should move in and out. If it got jammed (by a zealous reload or anything) the assembly would be able to move too far forward. The gun would not close.

There are two endshake sources. You said the "Yoke stud to frame connection" was tight. OK. Are you saying there is zero endshake between the yoke and the frame? With the gun open there should be some play front-to-back in the yoke (excluding the cylinder for now) but not enough to keep the gun from closing at the most-forward point. Other than that, it really doesn't matter.

The second source is when the cylinder is locked up in the gun. This is what must be absolutely correct. This is the cylinder play you see front to back which is the end of the yoke to the inside of cylinder, and should be a very low number. .001" to .002" is a good Gross End Shake number. I won't go into cylinder gap right now except to say I would have expected the gun to stop running because the front of the cylinder was dragging on the barrel before I would expect to see the gun unable to close if a cylinder shim was needed. Barrel gap is normally .005" - .006" with some room on either side. A gun won't run (very long) at .001" so I'm not convinced a shim between the cylinder and the yoke will help you.

I've only seen three causes that "suddenly" keep a S&W from closing: a) loose ejector rod backs out too far to close (this also can lock the gun shut) "B)" something huge gets caught under the ejector star (like a case head) and c) loose/bad yoke screw backs out and lets the yoke/cylinder assembly move too far toward the muzzle of the gun. Some people tell stories of the cylinder and yoke indicating the yoke screw is too loose by making a "thunk" sound by hitting the ground. :o

I'm thinking about the "jump forward" description, that's why the first thing I would check is the end of that yoke screw.

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I'm perplexed by the "all of a sudden" report. These things normally go gradually.

Have you examined the end of the yoke retaining screw? If the cylinder would not close, that would tell me the whole assembly was too far forward. :huh: The tip is spring loaded and should move in and out. If it got jammed (by a zealous reload or anything) the assembly would be able to move too far forward. The gun would not close.

There are two endshake sources. You said the "Yoke stud to frame connection" was tight. OK. Are you saying there is zero endshake between the yoke and the frame? With the gun open there should be some play front-to-back in the yoke (excluding the cylinder for now) but not enough to keep the gun from closing at the most-forward point. Other than that, it really doesn't matter.

The second source is when the cylinder is locked up in the gun. This is what must be absolutely correct. This is the cylinder play you see front to back which is the end of the yoke to the inside of cylinder, and should be a very low number. .001" to .002" is a good Gross End Shake number. I won't go into cylinder gap right now except to say I would have expected the gun to stop running because the front of the cylinder was dragging on the barrel before I would expect to see the gun unable to close if a cylinder shim was needed. Barrel gap is normally .005" - .006" with some room on either side. A gun won't run (very long) at .001" so I'm not convinced a shim between the cylinder and the yoke will help you.

I've only seen three causes that "suddenly" keep a S&W from closing: a) loose ejector rod backs out too far to close (this also can lock the gun shut) "B)" something huge gets caught under the ejector star (like a case head) and c) loose/bad yoke screw backs out and lets the yoke/cylinder assembly move too far toward the muzzle of the gun. Some people tell stories of the cylinder and yoke indicating the yoke screw is too loose by making a "thunk" sound by hitting the ground. :o

I'm thinking about the "jump forward" description, that's why the first thing I would check is the end of that yoke screw.

I am very in inartful in my mechanical descriptions, especially when distracted by my now recalcitrant computer. The problem is light strike/misfires. The apparent cause is lateral movement by the cylinder when it is not locked up in the gun. The misfires were sudden. I had not been tracking any gradual increase in the cylinder play. The first indication of something wrong was a few weeks ago when the ejector spring seemed to have slipped loose and the cylinder would not close. That was followed by the misfires. I initially tried to change out the spring, which I thought was failing to no avail. I have now moved on to shims. Any help or suggestions are appreciated. The Powers instructions tell me to examine where the yoke stud meets the frame for play. There does not appear to be any. The only salient symptom is the forward and backward play of the cylinder when it is outside the gun Thanks for any and all ideas and help.

I'm perplexed by the "all of a sudden" report. These things normally go gradually.

Have you examined the end of the yoke retaining screw? If the cylinder would not close, that would tell me the whole assembly was too far forward. :huh: The tip is spring loaded and should move in and out. If it got jammed (by a zealous reload or anything) the assembly would be able to move too far forward. The gun would not close.

There are two endshake sources. You said the "Yoke stud to frame connection" was tight. OK. Are you saying there is zero endshake between the yoke and the frame? With the gun open there should be some play front-to-back in the yoke (excluding the cylinder for now) but not enough to keep the gun from closing at the most-forward point. Other than that, it really doesn't matter.

The second source is when the cylinder is locked up in the gun. This is what must be absolutely correct. This is the cylinder play you see front to back which is the end of the yoke to the inside of cylinder, and should be a very low number. .001" to .002" is a good Gross End Shake number. I won't go into cylinder gap right now except to say I would have expected the gun to stop running because the front of the cylinder was dragging on the barrel before I would expect to see the gun unable to close if a cylinder shim was needed. Barrel gap is normally .005" - .006" with some room on either side. A gun won't run (very long) at .001" so I'm not convinced a shim between the cylinder and the yoke will help you.

I've only seen three causes that "suddenly" keep a S&W from closing: a) loose ejector rod backs out too far to close (this also can lock the gun shut) "B)" something huge gets caught under the ejector star (like a case head) and c) loose/bad yoke screw backs out and lets the yoke/cylinder assembly move too far toward the muzzle of the gun. Some people tell stories of the cylinder and yoke indicating the yoke screw is too loose by making a "thunk" sound by hitting the ground. :o

I'm thinking about the "jump forward" description, that's why the first thing I would check is the end of that yoke screw.

I am very in inartful in my mechanical descriptions, especially when distracted by my now recalcitrant computer. The problem is light strike/misfires. The apparent cause is lateral movement by the cylinder as seen when it is not locked up in the gun. The misfires were sudden. I had not been tracking any gradual increase in the cylinder play. The first indication of something wrong was a few weeks ago when the ejector spring seemed to have slipped loose and the cylinder would not close. That was followed by the misfires. I initially tried to change out the spring, which I thought was failing to no avail. I have now moved on to shims. Any help or suggestions are appreciated. The Powers instructions tell me to examine where the yoke stud meets the frame for play. There does not appear to be any. The only salient symptom is the forward and backward play of the cylinder when it is outside the gun Thanks for any and all ideas and help.

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You state that "The only salient symptom is the forward and backward play of the cylinder when it is outside the gun."

This is normal. The play the shims will correct is the cylinder end shake when the cylinder is in the gun. When the cylinder is whithin the gun the endshake should be .003 to .006, more or less. Pat Sweeney has a good description of this in "Gunsmithing Pistols and Revolvers".

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I am very in inartful in my mechanical descriptions, especially when distracted by my now recalcitrant computer. The problem is light strike/misfires. The apparent cause is lateral movement by the cylinder when it is not locked up in the gun. The misfires were sudden. I had not been tracking any gradual increase in the cylinder play. The first indication of something wrong was a few weeks ago when the ejector spring seemed to have slipped loose and the cylinder would not close. That was followed by the misfires. I initially tried to change out the spring, which I thought was failing to no avail. I have now moved on to shims. Any help or suggestions are appreciated. The Powers instructions tell me to examine where the yoke stud meets the frame for play. There does not appear to be any. The only salient symptom is the forward and backward play of the cylinder when it is outside the gun Thanks for any and all ideas and help.

The play of the cylinder outside of the gun (not locked up) is not important. At the forward most point it sits on the end of the yoke barrel. At the rearward most point the back of the cylinder hits a bump on the frame to keep it from falling off of the gun. This is not a precise tolerance and shouldn't be a concern if the end shake of the yoke to frame is not excessive (i.e. the yoke can be closed).

Before shimming, with or without light strikes, you should take measurements to determine if it is necessary. Many of these 625's will take a .002" shim without making any difference, but if you've got an actual .002" - .003" endshake and you put .004" shim in you'll have other problems.

I would determine actual current endshake (the cylinder flopping forwards and backwards outside of the gun isn't actually a component of endshake). This is one of those three-handed jobs that may take a few trys to get it right. What you have to do is lock the cylinder up in the gun (UNLOADED OF COURSE) and while pushing the cylinder forward in the gun take some kind of gap measurement. My habit is to measure the gap between the front of the cylinder and the barrel, but some books show measuring the other end. It doesn't matter, just write that number down.

Then, while holding the cylinder in the other direction, measure the same gap again. Write this number down.

The difference in the two numbers is your end shake. If this number is .005" - .006" a total of .004" shim might help. If it's .002" - .003" I'm going to say something else is the problem. That doesn't mean I wouldn't square up the yoke tube and add a shim for other reasons, but get the gun running first that do your fine tuning.

I still have a nagging feeling I'm missing something. "The first indication of something wrong was a few weeks ago when the ejector spring seemed to have slipped loose and the cylinder would not close." So are you saying the star was sticking out when you tried to close the cylinder? The thing I call the ejector spring is the one inside the cylinder that requires you remove the ejector rod to change. Is that the one you changed?

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I am very in inartful in my mechanical descriptions, especially when distracted by my now recalcitrant computer. The problem is light strike/misfires. The apparent cause is lateral movement by the cylinder when it is not locked up in the gun. The misfires were sudden. I had not been tracking any gradual increase in the cylinder play. The first indication of something wrong was a few weeks ago when the ejector spring seemed to have slipped loose and the cylinder would not close. That was followed by the misfires. I initially tried to change out the spring, which I thought was failing to no avail. I have now moved on to shims. Any help or suggestions are appreciated. The Powers instructions tell me to examine where the yoke stud meets the frame for play. There does not appear to be any. The only salient symptom is the forward and backward play of the cylinder when it is outside the gun Thanks for any and all ideas and help.

The play of the cylinder outside of the gun (not locked up) is not important. At the forward most point it sits on the end of the yoke barrel. At the rearward most point the back of the cylinder hits a bump on the frame to keep it from falling off of the gun. This is not a precise tolerance and shouldn't be a concern if the end shake of the yoke to frame is not excessive (i.e. the yoke can be closed).

Before shimming, with or without light strikes, you should take measurements to determine if it is necessary. Many of these 625's will take a .002" shim without making any difference, but if you've got an actual .002" - .003" endshake and you put .004" shim in you'll have other problems.

I would determine actual current endshake (the cylinder flopping forwards and backwards outside of the gun isn't actually a component of endshake). This is one of those three-handed jobs that may take a few trys to get it right. What you have to do is lock the cylinder up in the gun (UNLOADED OF COURSE) and while pushing the cylinder forward in the gun take some kind of gap measurement. My habit is to measure the gap between the front of the cylinder and the barrel, but some books show measuring the other end. It doesn't matter, just write that number down.

Then, while holding the cylinder in the other direction, measure the same gap again. Write this number down.

The difference in the two numbers is your end shake. If this number is .005" - .006" a total of .004" shim might help. If it's .002" - .003" I'm going to say something else is the problem. That doesn't mean I wouldn't square up the yoke tube and add a shim for other reasons, but get the gun running first that do your fine tuning.

I still have a nagging feeling I'm missing something. "The first indication of something wrong was a few weeks ago when the ejector spring seemed to have slipped loose and the cylinder would not close." So are you saying the star was sticking out when you tried to close the cylinder? The thing I call the ejector spring is the one inside the cylinder that requires you remove the ejector rod to change. Is that the one you changed?

That is the spring that I changed. The gun would not close on a reload. I looked at it and it seemed the spring was too far forward. I reassembled the cylinder and figured that the spring may have been put in backwards or something. It had just been retimed. It happened again. The gun ran fine for a week or two, then the apparent light hits and failures to fire. I may be missing something too

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Underlug,

I'm really confused here........

I dont know of any spring (coil) that can be installed backwards in a Revo.......!!!!

Do you have the extractor rod threaded on the extractor star properly with the collar on it.

When you say the spring is too far forward.......Where are you seeing this?????

Yep.....im confused :D:D

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1. Not being able to close the cylinder would be a loose extractor rod. If you are seeing a spring there, you have problems you will not repair with your limited expertise.

2. To check end shake cylinder, it is done cylinder closed and your hand holding the yoke tight against the frame so as not to confuse end shake cylinder with end shake yoke AND not to combine both to show a problem that is not there. In more that 20 years of working on these things, I have never measured end shake. It is there or it is not and it is easy to fix (for me at least and I don't use shims)

3. If you had action work completed and shortly after it began to misfire, I would tighten the strain screw under the grips to get the main spring tension back on the hammer.

4. Give a logical sequence of events and start from the beginning. Let us have the whole story and use my parts diagram to identify the parts.

post-2631-1155072289.jpg

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1. Not being able to close the cylinder would be a loose extractor rod. If you are seeing a spring there, you have problems you will not repair with your limited expertise.

2. To check end shake cylinder, it is done cylinder closed and your hand holding the yoke tight against the frame so as not to confuse end shake cylinder with end shake yoke AND not to combine both to show a problem that is not there. In more that 20 years of working on these things, I have never measured end shake. It is there or it is not and it is easy to fix (for me at least and I don't use shims)

3. If you had action work completed and shortly after it began to misfire, I would tighten the strain screw under the grips to get the main spring tension back on the hammer.

4. Give a logical sequence of events and start from the beginning. Let us have the whole story and use my parts diagram to identify the parts.

I hope this is not too redundant for you. I have given a sequential recount of symptoms. I shot the gun about 6 times after its return re timing issues (the action work was years old and already extant). At a match, during a reload the cylinder would not close. It appeared that the cylinder was back toward the butt of the gun and that the ejector spring had made it's way over the retention cap. I took apart the cylinder, pushed back the spring, reassembled and shot merrily for a couple/three weekends. At a practice session at the range, it happened again. I put it back together and questioned the spring in my mind. Then at the last two matches I have shot, I have gotten otherwise unexplained light strikes. Though I'm obviously not a mechanical whiz, I am a little past high primers, loose strain screws, and loose ejector rods. I even remember to put a screw driver in most of the screws before a match most times.

I changed out the spring to no effect.

What made me think "end shake" is the inordinate movement of the cylinder along the horizontle axis of the ejector rod with the cylinder OUT compared to my other guns. The movement is double or triple. When the cylinder is IN the movement is minimal which argues against end shake as a cause of my problem

The movement of the cylinder with the cylinder out bugs the Hell out of me, but, if it is not an issue, I need other ideas re light strikes.

Thank you for your time, ideas, and attention. Hope I have been clear. I know it is difficult without the gun in your hands..

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The movement of the cylinder with the cylinder out bugs the Hell out of me, but, if it is not an issue, I need other ideas re light strikes.

Thank you for your time, ideas, and attention. Hope I have been clear. I know it is difficult without the gun in your hands..

Frame mounted firing pin or hammer mounted?

If hammer mounted, clean it off and brush the area of the frame where the hammer sets.

If frame mounted, remove it, clean it, and clean the channel it passes through.

Next, try a new main spring. (If you need one give me your address in e mail (I don't do PMs) I will send you a couple stock springs. You can even try the bend your own ;)

Regards,

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Remember seeing an article that talked of shortening the springs in the crane bore. It wasn't real clear, but if someone tried to take a coil or two off of the larger spring it could do strange things. The springs should look the same at both ends.

One other thing if it's an older model have you checked the Cylinder Stop on the left side of the frame. If it's loose it can let your cylinder work back.

Just some ideas.

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Remember seeing an article that talked of shortening the springs in the crane bore. It wasn't real clear, but if someone tried to take a coil or two off of the larger spring it could do strange things. The springs should look the same at both ends.

One other thing if it's an older model have you checked the Cylinder Stop on the left side of the frame. If it's loose it can let your cylinder work back.

Just some ideas.

Thank you all. Ideas are what I need right now (along with some mechanical aptitude)

The movement of the cylinder with the cylinder out bugs the Hell out of me, but, if it is not an issue, I need other ideas re light strikes.

Thank you for your time, ideas, and attention. Hope I have been clear. I know it is difficult without the gun in your hands..

Frame mounted firing pin or hammer mounted?

If hammer mounted, clean it off and brush the area of the frame where the hammer sets.

If frame mounted, remove it, clean it, and clean the channel it passes through.

Next, try a new main spring. (If you need one give me your address in e mail (I don't do PMs) I will send you a couple stock springs. You can even try the bend your own ;)

Regards,

Hammer mounted (625-4). I was going to change the main spring anyway. It was originally bent by Clark in one of their trigger jobs. It would not fire factory when I got it back and had to be corrected. Thank you for the offer, but, I do have some mainspring options. I appreciate the help

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The movement of the cylinder with the cylinder out bugs the Hell out of me, but, if it is not an issue, I need other ideas re light strikes.

Thank you for your time, ideas, and attention. Hope I have been clear. I know it is difficult without the gun in your hands..

Frame mounted firing pin or hammer mounted?

If hammer mounted, clean it off and brush the area of the frame where the hammer sets.

If frame mounted, remove it, clean it, and clean the channel it passes through.

Next, try a new main spring. (If you need one give me your address in e mail (I don't do PMs) I will send you a couple stock springs. You can even try the bend your own ;)

Regards,

Check to see if the hammer is dragging on the frame. Many smiths have that and it reduces striking energy.

Then at the last two matches I have shot, I have gotten otherwise unexplained light strikes. Though I'm obviously not a mechanical whiz, I am a little past high primers, loose strain screws, and loose ejector rods. I even remember to put a screw driver in most of the screws before a match most times.

1) If the ejector sping can "work it's way over" the retainer..... it is hosed. That should never happen, and shouldn't even be possible..

2) Are the light strikes showing a light indentation in the prinmers in the correct place?

If so, a new mainspring will fix this or just a little bend in yours.

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The movement of the cylinder with the cylinder out bugs the Hell out of me, but, if it is not an issue, I need other ideas re light strikes.

Thank you for your time, ideas, and attention. Hope I have been clear. I know it is difficult without the gun in your hands..

Frame mounted firing pin or hammer mounted?

If hammer mounted, clean it off and brush the area of the frame where the hammer sets.

If frame mounted, remove it, clean it, and clean the channel it passes through.

Next, try a new main spring. (If you need one give me your address in e mail (I don't do PMs) I will send you a couple stock springs. You can even try the bend your own ;)

Regards,

Check to see if the hammer is dragging on the frame. Many smiths have that and it reduces striking energy.

Then at the last two matches I have shot, I have gotten otherwise unexplained light strikes. Though I'm obviously not a mechanical whiz, I am a little past high primers, loose strain screws, and loose ejector rods. I even remember to put a screw driver in most of the screws before a match most times.

1) If the ejector sping can "work it's way over" the retainer..... it is hosed. That should never happen, and shouldn't even be possible..

2) Are the light strikes showing a light indentation in the prinmers in the correct place?

If so, a new mainspring will fix this or just a little bend in yours.

You are right about the spring. It did not happen. The cylinder was just so far back the spring was exposed and it looked like it might have. My mistake. I am centered on my primer hits.

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Underlug - It is evident that you have a defective revolver and instead of wracking your brains and trying to repair it which will no doubt cause you much distress and sleepliness, you should buy yourself a new revolver and give me the old one so I can whisk it away from your eyes so it will not offend you anymore :D .

Actually, you should let Roger take a look at it. He's been able to diagnose & fix most of my troubles with my revolvers. If you get it fixed, are you going to shoot at Paul Bunyan this weekend? The Alpha Bear wants to thump me - again. I am tentatively planning to go and receive my monthly share of abuse.

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Underlug - It is evident that you have a defective revolver and instead of wracking your brains and trying to repair it which will no doubt cause you much distress and sleepliness, you should buy yourself a new revolver and give me the old one so I can whisk it away from your eyes so it will not offend you anymore :D .

Actually, you should let Roger take a look at it. He's been able to diagnose & fix most of my troubles with my revolvers. If you get it fixed, are you going to shoot at Paul Bunyan this weekend? The Alpha Bear wants to thump me - again. I am tentatively planning to go and receive my monthly share of abuse.

It's not just the revolver that is defective. Hope to see you this weekend, or, next for sure

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Underlug - It is evident that you have a defective revolver and instead of wracking your brains and trying to repair it which will no doubt cause you much distress and sleepliness, you should buy yourself a new revolver and give me the old one so I can whisk it away from your eyes so it will not offend you anymore :D .

Actually, you should let Roger take a look at it. He's been able to diagnose & fix most of my troubles with my revolvers. If you get it fixed, are you going to shoot at Paul Bunyan this weekend? The Alpha Bear wants to thump me - again. I am tentatively planning to go and receive my monthly share of abuse.

It's not just the revolver that is defective. Hope to see you this weekend, or, next for sure

Thanks to everybody for all the help. I installed a Vic Pickett spring kit and the problems have seemed to go away for the moment. The explanations I have gotten have greatly increased my knowledge and interest. I still can't believe the amount of horizontle play of the cylinder when it is out, but, I understand why it doesn't matter.

Underlug - It is evident that you have a defective revolver and instead of wracking your brains and trying to repair it which will no doubt cause you much distress and sleepliness, you should buy yourself a new revolver and give me the old one so I can whisk it away from your eyes so it will not offend you anymore :D .

Actually, you should let Roger take a look at it. He's been able to diagnose & fix most of my troubles with my revolvers. If you get it fixed, are you going to shoot at Paul Bunyan this weekend? The Alpha Bear wants to thump me - again. I am tentatively planning to go and receive my monthly share of abuse.

It's not just the revolver that is defective. Hope to see you this weekend, or, next for sure

Underlug - It is evident that you have a defective revolver and instead of wracking your brains and trying to repair it which will no doubt cause you much distress and sleepliness, you should buy yourself a new revolver and give me the old one so I can whisk it away from your eyes so it will not offend you anymore :D .

Actually, you should let Roger take a look at it. He's been able to diagnose & fix most of my troubles with my revolvers. If you get it fixed, are you going to shoot at Paul Bunyan this weekend? The Alpha Bear wants to thump me - again. I am tentatively planning to go and receive my monthly share of abuse.

It's not just the revolver that is defective. Hope to see you this weekend, or, next for sure

Thanks to everybody for all the help. I installed a Vic Pickett spring kit, and after some tweaks, the problems have seemed to have gone away for the moment. The Pickett spring kit makes for a great trigger. the explanations I have gotten have greatly increased my knowledge and interest. I still can't believe the amount of horizontel play of the cylinder when it is out, but, I understand why it doesn't matter.

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