S V Sighttracker

[Julien Boit]

Somebody said that it belongs entirely to the driver. It deals with shooting style and abilities.

I think all types of configurations are Ok as long as they fit the shooter style/ability.

I currently own two long framed STI Eagles and a short framed one.

I really like to shoot the short frame, and considering using it as my match gun, but if I shot one of my Eagles just after, I just keep using the long framed pistols.

I've tried the Sight Tracker a couple of times, and for me there is no big difference with a "regular" pistol.

If I had to pick up one it would be because the look is better than a STI, not because this is the hot set up for me.

My .2 cts

[eric nielsen]

http://www.jorgeballesteros.net/Archivo/Fo...SCN2542_JPG.htm

[L9X25]

http://www.jorgeballesteros.net/Archivo/Fo...SCN2542_JPG.htm

Eric,

What exactly is that picture showing? It looks as if he chopped the end of the slide off and retained the 5" barrel and spring system? Or is that a 6" barrel and spring system with a 5" slide?

[eric nielsen]

I used a ruler to compare & yes it's a 5" barrel, short slide, Schuemann barrel and some sort of 5.5" recoil spring plug. There are other photos on his site but that's the clearest.

[Matt Cheely]

I used a ruler to compare & yes it's a 5" barrel, short slide, Schuemann barrel and some sort of 5.5" recoil spring plug. There are other photos on his site but that's the clearest.

Is that Limited Legal ???

[L9X25]

I used a ruler to compare & yes it's a 5" barrel, short slide, Schuemann barrel and some sort of 5.5" recoil spring plug. There are other photos on his site but that's the clearest.

Is that Limited Legal ???

I thought the same thing but they do allow you to take weight off the slide ... he is just doing it in a different way.

[Sandro]

Jorge is a nice guy, I sent him an email asking him to share with us the advances of the sight tracker from his prospective. Whatever he did to his gun, worked because he won couple big matches in Europe.

Sandro

[RIIID]

It should be illegal in Limited, but the way the rulings have going it will probably deem legal.

Rich

[Julien Boit]

Keep in mind guys that Jorge shoots under IPSC standard rules, which are slightly different from Limited Rules.

It have to fit the box with a mag inserted, no ports and no optics. These are the three main criteria for us. But I'm also very curious about his setup.

[Matt Cheely]

FYI: I inquired Mr. Amidon about the shortened slide and the response was that it could lead to a prototype situation...

Edited August 23, 2006 by Matt Cheely

[Nemo]

Let's get back in track people. This thread is about Brazilian chick tracking!

[Singlestack Wonder]

FYI: I inquired Mr. Amidon about the shortened slide and the response was that it could lead to a prototype situation...

The STI Tru-Sight didn't create a prototype situation, why would a shortened slide cause one?

[Matt Cheely]

FYI: I inquired Mr. Amidon about the shortened slide and the response was that it could lead to a prototype situation...

The STI Tru-Sight didn't create a prototype situation, why would a shortened slide cause one?

I'm sure a shortened slide gun would be fine if you made 500 of them.

[L9X25]

I think that they specifically allow you to lighten the slide (as has been done to the gun in Matt's avatar) and shortening the slide (with all else unchanged) is just another way of lightening the slide. This is NOT a new gun and anybody with a hacksaw can duplicate what he did. I doubt seriously that each time a gunsmith comes up with a new way to "cut" the slide they would have to produce 500 before it becomes legal. This is still a 5" gun.

While they can deem anything that they want legal or illegal, this falls under my interpretation of legal. The tru-sight probably should not be legal, regardless of the fact that it has been deemed legal. It has a comp, although not a very good one.

[Matt Cheely]

My read on it is the rules only say that ports are allowed. This has been taken to mean that any cuts I put in the slide are ok. Cutting the end off is not a port as far as I can see.

I wish it were legal, cause I'd build one. I think it looks cool.

[eric nielsen]

As mentioned, the rules are different for IPSC standard - they allow the SPS Pelican and if you like, a 5.5" slide/DC combo since that barely fits in the box.

Which is cooler, Jorge's SV or TGO's new 6" Springfield [p55 of Front Sight Magazine] ???

Edited August 25, 2006 by eric nielsen

[Jorge Ballesteros]

hi guys,

sandro sent me this link, its very interesting topic. The gun i was shooting spanish and italian nationals is a home made gun, my dad and i were developing and testing some combinations. Most of you know that im mainly an Open shooter, and i took standard like a true challenge. Its really hard and takes lot of training and time to get the same level in both divisions. I think that chris t. knows what im talking about. For that reason, i needed to have a standard gun similar to my SV Open Gun. In Open im using a IMM 5" with 6 round holes and 4 ports compensator, and thats the fastest gun i ever tried. What we made is change the slide. I putted my 5" slide to my standard gun and we made the sight tracker for the hibrid barrel. It really works, the recoil was much faster, but i still miss something, the gun was to light. We added a long tunsteng guide rod with a steel piece screwed in the top end. That was the key! the perfect combination for me. We also cutted the rear bomar sights to make it thiner, i didnt like that black screen, it hides too much for target transitions.

For me, i choose sight tracked without any doubt, its always less weight for the slide, and allows you faster recoil control cause you can see the frontsight all the time. I dont know why my gun could be illegal for limited....its a 5" factory slide.

About Shooter Vs Gun, we are agree that shooter is 95-99% if the gun works. But, at top level, the quality of your machine really matters. if somebody there watch F1, Why Fernando Alonso change Renault to Mercedes-Mclaren been still World Champion?

take care

jorge

DVC

[Jorge Ballesteros]

little mistake

Slide lenght: 4"

barrel lenght: 5"

Best regards

jorge

[Sandro]

hi guys,

sandro sent me this link, its very interesting topic. The gun i was shooting spanish and italian nationals is a home made gun, my dad and i were developing and testing some combinations. Most of you know that im mainly an Open shooter, and i took standard like a true challenge. Its really hard and takes lot of training and time to get the same level in both divisions. I think that chris t. knows what im talking about. For that reason, i needed to have a standard gun similar to my SV Open Gun. In Open im using a IMM 5" with 6 round holes and 4 ports compensator, and thats the fastest gun i ever tried. What we made is change the slide. I putted my 5" slide to my standard gun and we made the sight tracker for the hibrid barrel. It really works, the recoil was much faster, but i still miss something, the gun was to light. We added a long tunsteng guide rod with a steel piece screwed in the top end. That was the key! the perfect combination for me. We also cutted the rear bomar sights to make it thiner, i didnt like that black screen, it hides too much for target transitions.

For me, i choose sight tracked without any doubt, its always less weight for the slide, and allows you faster recoil control cause you can see the frontsight all the time. I dont know why my gun could be illegal for limited....its a 5" factory slide.

About Shooter Vs Gun, we are agree that shooter is 95-99% if the gun works. But, at top level, the quality of your machine really matters. if somebody there watch F1, Why Fernando Alonso change Renault to Mercedes-Mclaren been still World Champion?

take care

jorge

DVC

I guess we found the answer, the Sight Tracker concept works for what was intended to do.

Thanks Jorge for responding.

Regards,

Sandro

[Julien Boit]

Thanks a lot for the input Jorge.

Do you plan to shoot other big matches in europe with your standard gun ?

[Flexmoney]

I dont know why my gun could be illegal for limited....

Jorge,

USPSA's Limited (and Limited-10) divisions have a requirement of "500 produced" for gun and components for them to be legal.

I'm not sure where your setup would put you. If it were me, I would run it by USPSA's NROI to be sure...before shooting it in an USPSA match.

[Jorge Ballesteros]

flex, as you know ipsc rules are little bit different, better to ask for that for uspsa. Julien, now im begining my training in open again cause of the uspsa nationals in october, i wanted to try standard this year due to there´s not european champ or world shoot. we will see..

regards

jorge

[mpolans]

My read on it is the rules only say that ports are allowed. This has been taken to mean that any cuts I put in the slide are ok. Cutting the end off is not a port as far as I can see.

I wish it were legal, cause I'd build one. I think it looks cool.

Why not? What's the difference between a slide that comes from STI shortened and one that is shortened by a gunsmith? I wouldn't have thought the elongated cut for a Sightracker rib would be considered a port, but since there's been a ruling that has approved it...

FWIW, I think this sort of confusion is just what happens when we have poorly written rules that leave too much to interpretation combined with (IMHO) some poor rulings on rules.

If I could wave a magic wand, here are some of the changes I would make to help prevent some of the confusion (from part of a post on the USPSA site forums):

Red = Add.

Strikethrough = Remove.

#4

US APPENDIX D7 Limited Division

16. Any complete handgun or components produced by a factory and available to the general public for one year and of which at least 500 produced. Prototypes are specifically not allowed.

This will allow new guns and parts to be immediately useable. I don't see the need to wait if all the other rules are satisfied. Given how frequently Limited guns are built from the ground up, arguably every custom built gun is a prototype. The first sentence should be good enough. If some manufacturer is willing to go through the hassle and expense of producing 500 prototypes, let 'em.

#5

US APPENDIX D7 Limited Division

17. Only porting of barrels is prohibited. Slides may be ported. However, the slide must fully enclose the barrel.

NEW 18. No part of the barrel forward of the chamber shall be permitted to protrude through a port or cut in the slide. At no time should the muzzle of the barrel, nor a barrel bushing, extend more than 0.200" from the front face of the slide. No barrel sleeve in a material denser than that of the barrel shall be permitted.

This rule prevents the use of barrel weights as a means of reducing recoil. In my opinion, the Sight Trackers, Trusights, and unported comp blanks screwed on to the end of a barrel are not in the spirit of Limited Division. Ditto the tungsten sleeves. To some degree, they all use increased barrel mass to reduce recoil. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and I think requiring the barrel to be contained within the slide is probably the best compromise.

#6

US APPENDIX D7 Limited Division

18. External modifications such as weights, or devices to control or reduce recoil are specifically not allowed, such as but not limited to, thumb rest, extended slide stops, etc.

Because of how subjective the language is, this rule is poorly written and has led to some questionable interpretations. We should just get rid of it. It is worth noting that IPSC doesn't have a corresponding rule.

#7

US APPENDIX D7 Limited Division

19. Internal modifications to improve accuracy, reliability and function are allowed. E.g. spherical bushings, Acc-U-Rails, and replacement barrels. provided the barrel length is the same as original factory standard.

Because of how often Limited Division guns are being built from the ground up, "Factory Standard" is a pretty empty term. All it takes is for a gunsmith/manufacturer to build 500 examples of a gun with a barrel extending as far as it wanted and you'd have...well...a Trusight. Besides, this clause would no longer be needed if the rule I suggest above limiting barrels from extending more than 0.200" past the slide is adopted.

#8

US APPENDIX D8 Limited 10 Division

Apply the same changes made for Limited to the corresponding sections of Limited 10 Division.

#9

US APPENDIX D9 US Production Division

23. Competition holsters of the race gun type specifically not allowed. For clarification: ALL retention features of the holster MUST be used. All holsters must fully cover the trigger when the pistol is holstered. The front of holsters for autos may be cut no lower than ¼-inch below the ejection port. Revolver holsters may be cut no lower than half way down the cylinder.

I think this rule is unnecessary. The language "Competition holsters of the race gun type" is too vague and subjective to provide adequate guidance. This rule does little to make sure the holster is a duty type or a concealment holster and let's face it, our sport isn't about requiring folks to draw from concealment. That's that *other* sport. So, the only real reason for this rule is to cut costs and make it the cheap division. The rules mandating holster and mag pouch position negate much of the advantages of the expensive, super adjustable competition holsters out there. Further, because adjustment is not much of a priority, some of the fastest non-adjustable holsters out there are $65 or less (example: Bladetech DOH); that's often cheaper than a good concealment or duty rig.

#10

US APPENDIX D9 US Production Division

Remove the available for one year provision from the Production Division criteria.

[BR]

In light of the fact that STI TruSight -- with a 5 inch barrel and 4ish inch slide with sight on the barrel -- is legal, why would Jorge's gun be illegal? Jorge has a 5 inch barrel and 4ish inch slide with sight on the barrel.

The reg.barrel/shortened slide has already been done, has been approved for US Limited, and STI has produced the requisite number of guns and/or shortened slides. The sight on the barrel has been done and approved. If one extends the logic used to make legal the TruSight and the Sighttracker, I think Jorge Ballestero's set up should also be US limited legal.

-br

[Flexmoney]

In light of the fact that STI TruSight -- with a 5 inch barrel and 4ish inch slide with sight on the barrel -- is legal, why would Jorge's gun be illegal? Jorge has a 5 inch barrel and 4ish inch slide with sight on the barrel.

The reg.barrel/shortened slide has already been done, has been approved for US Limited, and STI has produced the requisite number of guns and/or shortened slides. The sight on the barrel has been done and approved. If one extends the logic used to make legal the TruSight and the Sighttracker, I think Jorge Ballestero's set up should also be US limited legal.

-br

I don't know if his gun would be legal in USPSA Limited or not.

Those other configurations don't really carry over to his setup. For example, you just can't weld an extended dust cover onto a Para or Caspian framed gun just because the STI's/SV's have done so. You still have to meet the 500 guns or components criteria with that configuration.

Jorge states that it is a home shop design by him and his father...using a "steel piece screwed on top". That likely wouldn't be legal unless that has been done before...in numbers greater than 500.

I'm just suggesting that one find out before traveling to a match and learning from the match officials that the gun doesn't fit the division. I'd hate to see Jorge come from Spain to shoot the USPSA Nationals and have his gun fail the requirements for the division.