When is it a hit, and when isn't it?

[wmiller45]

Ok, first off, I'm not whining here, just looking for some clarification on the rules so I know what to look for in the future.

At a recent match, I had a hit that nicked a no-shoot on the edge of the target. It didn't break the perf, but if you got real close, there was a dark mark(?) that was right on the perf. It looked like a lead mark, but I'm shooting FMJs?

Anyway, the judgement was (it took four people) that because it left a mark on the area of the perf, it was a hostage hit. Now a memory is a terrible thing to loose, but I thought I remembered from the 'old days', that a bullet strike had to actually break the perf to be counted?

Was this changed in the rules?

Thanks.

[Shipster]

Bill had the samething happen to me this weekend.  It didn't break the perf and was counted as a miss.

<Steve>

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Bill,

See Section 9.5 of the rulebook, especially Rule 9.5.5.

The shot doesn't necessarily have to "break" the perforation to be scored as a penalty. However if your bullet hole (measured with a scoring overlay) touches the line, then it is a penalty.

Note that we do not measure "burn" marks which is why an exprienced RO always carries and uses scoring overlays.

Hence my call is no penalty.

My other observation is that if it was so close to require four people to examine the target, then it was not clearly a penalty, so the benefit of doubt should have gone to the competitor.

Of course without actually seeing the target, it's impossible for me to give you a definitive answer, so my opinion is based upon the way you described your hit.

[wmiller45]

Hey Vince,

Thanks for replying. This was the first 'big' match that this club put on. Not that that makes a difference, but maybe?

There was actually cardboard still intact on the OUTSIDE of the perf. Really. But the ruling was that because there was a 'burn mark' on/just over the perf (the paper folded over as the bullet passed through as they usually do, putting a mark over the perf without breaking it) it was scored as a hit on the hostage. He didn't use (nor did anyone else) an overlay.

I read 9.5.5, and I consider it vague for the following reason: A bullet's passage through cardboard will not cut clean. Especially a round nose. And the typical hole left is larger than the bullet's diameter, if only slightly. There is a portion of the cardboard that is folded over, not cut/displaced by the bullet's passage and this is what has the mark. So....if a bullet folds enough cardboard to include the perf, but not touch or break it, how is that scored? It is not explicitly stated in the rule 9.5.5

I know, we're talking tenths of inches here, but I simply would like a definitive answer here for future purposes.

Thanks.

(Edited by wmiller45 at 12:48 pm on Aug. 5, 2002)

[Flexmoney]

I agree with Vince.

It doesn't have to break the perf...just touch.  (And, imagine the perf as an infinitely small line.)

The benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter (four guys had to look...give it to the shooter).

Overlays are the way to go.  Ask the shooter what caliber, center that caliber's overlay on the hole, use the outside edge of the overlay circle and make a clear call as to whether the circle is touching.

When in doubt...the benefit goes to the shooter.

[wmiller45]

Oops, that should read:

a bullet's passage will leave a slightly smaller hole. Especially a round nose.

So, therefore, the bullet may have touched the line, folded it over, and left it intact. Is that what happened here? However, upon inspection, the perf was straight, not folded over into the bullet hole.

This was really hard for everyone to call. Took them almost 4 min. to do so. They definately didn't 'give the nod' to the shooter.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Bill,

As advised in my first post, the RO must use a scoring overlay because, as you say, bullet holes often appear smaller than their actual calibre.

Once you center the scoring overlay on top of your bullet hole, it's only a penalty if the circle touches the line. If the line is hard to see, then use a second scoring overlay to mark the line.

Four (4) minutes ?? Damn.

They shouldn't be looking for cancer cells or bacteria. It's a miss (no penalty)!

[xcount]

Is it a hit or not? Depends on the color of the target. If brown , if white

Seriously, I've never been a fan of the targets with the 1/4" border, the 1/2" bordered targets were better. On those you had enough of a hole that you could precisely place an overlay on it. With the 1/4" version this is almost impossible.

Leading to situations like this.

[wmiller45]

Hey thanks everyone!

Now I know how I'll score them when I'm a RO at the local match.

(Edited by wmiller45 at 2:42 pm on Aug. 5, 2002)

[Flexmoney]

9.5.6 actually covers the penalty targets. (says the same thing though...touching)

Bottom line...

Your bullet may, or may not, have been touching that line.  It is the RO's call to make (not the call of everybody else on the squad.)  If the RO has to be able to make a clear call.  If not, the shooter gets the benefit.

If the shooter doesn't agree with the call...challenge under 9.6

[Vince Pinto]

A good point, Kyle, which I overlooked.

We don't decide hits or misses by referendum. The RO makes his call (after due diligence and using his scoring overlays), and the competitor either accepts it or challenges it with a higher ranking official.