Mo Zee Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 We have a loca e-mail forum here in SA, and a friend of mine read up on article about an area 4 match. This is what he wrote: A top shooter stood on line and drew his gun to start loading before the RO gave the "Load and make Ready" command. The RO DQ'd him (Rule 10.3.3) and apparently the shooter made a big issue (that some experienced as unsportsmanlike behaviour) on the range and was then re-instated by the Range Master. No arbitration procedure was followed. The shooter went on to win the match. Can any one comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 Mo As the rule reads: 10.3.3 Handling a handgun at anytime except when in a designated safety area or on the firing line under the supervision of a Range Officer. If the RO was there watching him then the shooter was "under the supervision of a Range Officer" and the rule nowhere states that the LAMR command has to be issued. I think the RO was wrong to DQ him and the Range Master was right to re-instate him. Hope that helps and if I am wrong or another rule should have been used I know Vince will set me straight. All the best. Mario (Edited by Mario at 11:44 pm on Aug. 1, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 Quote: from Mario on 1:10 am on Aug. 2, 2002 If the RO was there watching him then the shooter was "under the supervision of a Range Officer" and the rule nowhere states that the LAMR command has to be issued. Mario, I disagree! Just because I'm standing next to the box, next to the shooter, does not mean that eh is under my supervision. There are any number of things that could be going on. The reason for the LAMR command is to signify the start of the course of fire. If this were not the case, the shooter would be able to load while there were people downrange, while the R.O. is getting a drink of water, etc. Range safety is the R.O.'s responsibility, but I suspect that if there were an accident, the shooter would have his butt in a serious sling. I firmly believe that Range Safety is everyone's highest priority! As a shooter, I've been given the LAMR command by a distracted R.O. and have simply waited him out ---- until he was free to concentrate on running me. I expect the shooter to wait until I give the LAMR command, if he does not, he will have startled me and we'll go cold and discuss it a bit. Then I'll decide whether the shooter's actions warrant a DQ or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 You've got to be a real strict RO, or really dislike the shooter to DQ him/her for doing what you described. Most RO's would give you a stern warning, not DQ. Of course we don't know the whole story....this pair may have history? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 Hi guys, Although I'm fully aware of the incident at the Area 4 match, I will not comment on that particular case. It's over, it's been settled and we need to move on. In respect of Rule 10.3.3., the answer is "No", just standing in the vicinity of the officiating RO is not being "under the supervision of a Range Officer". Rule 8.3.1. clearly states that the "Load & Make Ready" command signifies the start of the course of fire. Drawing your handgun prior to issuance of that command, which is only issued when the RO is satisfied the range is clear and it is safe to do so, is no different to drawing your gun 30 feet behind the RO while under the competitor's shelter. The most fundamental tenet of IPSC competition is that you never handle your gun, without specific RO permission, unless you are inside a safety area. I hope this clarifies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 Could this be the infamous "chickensh#t DQ?" SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario Posted August 5, 2002 Share Posted August 5, 2002 Please don't take my comments as one's that say it is ok to be un-safe and thanks Nik and Vince for setting me in the right direction. Also having re-read the original post I didn't read "started loading" the first time. My answer would have been a little different. Maybe with this rule I would suggest the word "supervision" be changed to read "instruction". No-one then has to guess whether the RO is supervising the shooter or not. Mario (Edited by Mario at 5:42 pm on Aug. 4, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario Posted August 5, 2002 Share Posted August 5, 2002 Just to add another question. Would I be completely wrong in saying that once the RO asks you to the line that you are then under his/her supervision?? As Nik stated that there could be other things going on so would it be better then for the RO not to ask you step up to the line if they are not ready to supervise you. I know the course of fire doesn't start until the LAMR command but at what point are you under the supervision of the RO?? Thanks Mario Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 5, 2002 Share Posted August 5, 2002 Mario, No offense taken ---- I've come back from scoring targets and found the next shooter standing on the line or in the start box, waiting for me. I think that it's pretty clear that the shooter shouldn't be drawing his gun until after he's sure that he's been given the LAMR command. I say this, because it's the shooter who'll potentially get himself disqualified ---- not the R.O. That said, once I give the LAMR command, I'll give you all the time you need to get ready to shoot. (Now if we're at an Area match or larger and you want to take ten minutes, that might be a little too long... ) Re-reading your last post again: The shooter is definitely under the supervision of the R.O. once the range command sequence is initiated with Load and Make Ready. Where I'm coming from: I took my level 1 R.O. class from Bill Kehoe in May 2002. I've not disqualified anyone since. I hope I never have to, because I like shooting with safe shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 5, 2002 Share Posted August 5, 2002 Mario, The "started loading" bit is not the issue. You simply don't draw your gun until the RO specifically tells you to do so. As you know, with larger matches, as one RO is doing the scoring, another RO is "hustling" the next competitor and calls him to the line, but this is purely to keep the stage running efficiently. While I agree the word "instruction" is probably clearer than "supervision", I'll bet you there are people who would argue that the "instruction" to "come to the line" means you can draw your gun ...... NOT! Bottom line: You don't draw your gun until you are given the "LAMR" command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario Posted August 5, 2002 Share Posted August 5, 2002 I agree 100% that the gun should not be handled until specifically advised to do so but the wording I think could be interpreted by a "range lawyer", no I'm not one, to mean something that it doesn't mean. Maybe this wording would be without interpretation: 10.3.3 Handling a handgun at anytime except when in a designated safety area or on the firing line under the direct instruction of a Range Officer to do so. Thanks Mario Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted August 5, 2002 Share Posted August 5, 2002 I have learned if I am not there or even if I am, perception can cloud what a person remembers or even sees. Maybe the RO was standing there in the area and it was one of those loud ranges with close together bays. A loud mouth shooter or the RO said "Lets get ready" for lunch. Shooter hears Load and Make ready and pulls gun. I really don't think that's what happened at A4 because of response. Should the shooter ask for clarification? Yes Should a RO talk loud and clear with proper commands? Yes Both can fail and I have seen it happen a lot. Rules say DQ but a "master" class RO can interpret a situation and react. I saw J Amidon do this at Factory Nats this year. Not saying that happened at A4 just stating what I think an RO should be, in general. Being an official is very difficult and doesn't please everyone but is also the most crucial element to a fair match. My friend refs basketball and says he has a good night when people don't even notice he's there. Course he is not afraid to DQ a superstar for his last foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Zee Posted August 6, 2002 Author Share Posted August 6, 2002 Thanx for the comments, They have all helped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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