Cocking the hammer

[eharte]

Hey guys,

I have a Sig P-229 that I am shooting in Production class. It is double action first shot/then single action for the rest of the rounds. At some courses of fire, the first few shots have been long distance. Since I am more accurate shooting single action versus double action, would it be legal to cock the hammer after the start buzzer has sounded?

Thanks in advance.

Ed Harte (carefully peeking my head out of my lurker's cave entrance)

[eharte]

Sorry,

The message should have started out "Hey guys and girls"

Ed Harte

[ErikW]

Yes

[Vince Pinto]

Ed,

You may not cock your hammer if you use your P229 in Production Division, which requires the first shot be double-action. See Appendix E, Production Division.

If you do cock your hammer, you will be subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.6. (i.e. welcome to Open Division!).

[ErikW]

"Single Action pistols not allowed. First shot must be double action."

Geez Vince, talk about beating the shooter over the head with the rulebook. We're all thinking it means "the gun's first trigger pull" and you're saying it means "the first shot fired by the competitor." What's the harm in a competitor burning some time cocking his pistol to have a better chance of making the first shot?

Ed, I doubt any range officer in the U.S. would call you on this one and I'll give you 50-50 odds at the Factory Gun Nationals.

(By the way Vince, what does the RO do here, call the RM or MD to have him moved into Open?)

Edit: Here's my arbitration... the first shot fired was double action. The first action was me cocking the hammer and the second was me pulling the trigger. The rule doesn't say the first shot must be fired with a double-action trigger pull.

(Edited by Erik Warren at 3:39 pm on April 26, 2002)

[eharte]

Eric,

I think your analysis is correct.  I would be using " two actions" to fire the pistol. One...cocking the hammer. Two..pulling the trigger. The rules do not state that the gun must be cocked with the trigger.

Thanks...Ed

[Vince Pinto]

Erik,

The term "double-action" refers to the action of the handgun not the competitor, and I can assure you, without a modicum of doubt, that my advice is correct.

In the event that a competitor cocks the hammer of his handgun prior to making his first shot, the officiating RO has the authority to reclassify the competitor to Open Division, but of course the RO must inform the Range Master who will, in turn, instruct Stats to reclassify the competitor.

The other thing is that if we allow competitors to cock their hammers on the draw in Production, there would be no need to prohibit single-action pistols, but that is the primary impetus behind the creation of Production Divison.

We already have three divisions (Open, Standard, Modified), which are totally dominated by single-action pistols.

Anyway guys, if you don't agree with me, that's OK, but don't say I didn't warn you.

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 4:53 pm on April 27, 2002)

[vluc]

We have two new shooters (a father and daughter) that have joined USPSA and shoot with us.  Both shoot production, and both do the same thing - pull the hammer back on first shot.

As they are new, the RO let them go but did tell them to work on and practice dry firing.  The daughter just does not like the pull on the pistol she is using.  I shoot/shot a SIG 226 in production and dry fired an awful lot to get to know the pistol.  When the buzzer goes off, I do not even notice the DA...which is what I told them as well.

And as we are already at a disadvantage shooting production to begin with, go ahead and throw one down range with that first shot...probably takes less time to pull the trigger than pull the hammer back , reacquire sight picture, etc.

I'd say look at reducing the mainspring or other trigger work on it.  Depending on how you position the pistol when drawing back the hammer, there is always the risk of breaking the 180..

[38supPat]

---

Quote: from Vince Pinto on 11:38 pm on April 26, 2002

The other thing is that if we allow competitors to cock their hammers on the draw in Production, there would be no need to prohibit single-action pistols, but

that

is the primary impetus behind the creation of Production Divison.

We already have three divisions (Open, Standard, Modified), which are totally dominated by single-action pistols.

Anyway guys, if you don't agree with me, that's OK, but don't say I didn't warn you.

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 4:53 pm on April 27, 2002)

---

Yeah, 'cuz by cocking the hammer you'd have such an advantage, you might even beat single actions using this technique

Seriously, it is not a terribly safe thing to attempt under time pressure. One slip and oops you're going home. Work on your DA technique, it really is not that bad, it just takes some work.

Pat

[Vince Pinto]

vluc,

Your comment: "we are already at a disadvantage shooting production to begin with" is surprising. Against whom are you disadvantaged?

The primary idea behind having divisions is to separate different firearms types in respect of results.

Eventhough Production Division guns shoot the same courses of fire in the same competition against Open Division guns, your results are quite separate.

Hence Eric Grauffel is currently IPSC Open Division World Champion and Mike Voigt is currently IPSC Standard Division World Champion and so on.

Moreover, this year at World Shoot XIII in South Africa, IPSC will for the first time recognise five divisional world champions, and each of them will have the same stature and prestige.

[vluc]

Vince, thanks.  

My comment was directed more towards COF's than anything else.  I cannot speak for how Nationals and other major tournaments are set up.  I can speak at a local level where I find more that are really geared for limited and open shooters than production.

Hopefully, as I advance and can design a cof that can be utilized, I will make it geared more to those of us who want to see quality cof rather than round counts.

It is my opinion that production is at a disadvantage.  From holster location to scoring and a a variety of other factors, I believe that.  But I shoot anyway because - as I said, I shoot for myself not for someone else.  I like the game enough to have become a certified  RO, and recognize the only way to change and improve things is by getting involved, not by standing on the sidelines and kvetching.

[Vince Pinto]

I certainly understand your comments about courses of fire.

Stages are, more often than not, set up for Open Divison, with fast movers and long distance shots, which are both easier to shoot with an Open Division gun than a Production Division gun.

However a 25 metre mini-popper is just as hard for a guy with a Glock 17 as it is for a guy with a P226. Don't compare your times to the Open Division guys. It's not a valid comparison and it'll break your heart :-)

I'm delighted to hear you took an RO course. I learnt much more about the rules and, believe it or not, I learnt more about shooting IPSC while working as an RO than ever before.

Why? When I shoot a major match with a squad of my peers (i.e. old, hairy and overweight plebs who drink and smoke too much!!), all I ever see is them. If it's a World Shoot, I see the same guys for 35 stages over 5 days.

However when I work as an RO, I get to see our very best shooters in action, and I pick up a lot of pointers from the way they attack my stage. Sometimes you see 20 squads go through your stage and they basically all shoot it the same way.

Then when the "Super Squad" comes through, you see the stage in a whole new light. This has taught me to "think outside the box" when it comes to planning my stage strategy.

If you can, try to work a major match or two and you'll see what I mean.

[Scooter]

This is straight off of IPSC's web page.

9. Am I allowed to cock my SA/DA pistol for the first shot in a course of fire?

No. The first shot in a course of fire must be double action. See question 11 for the exception.

[Carlos]

Thanks scooter - seems pretty clear and that was how I understood the production game - first shot DA - and not "I made two actions by first cocking it, then holstering, then a second action by shooting it...." - nice try though.

BTW, a Master level production shooter using a Glock 17 and factory ammo just won last weekend's Black Creek match over every other shooter - including all the open blasters and other masters and GMs who showed up.  This was no small feat as the Black Creek match typically attracts well known GM Phil Strader and Todd Jarret (although they were both in Florida I believe) so the level of competition was high.

[TDean]

I never gave it a second thought......

"First shot must be fired double action"

....after thinking secondarily, I'd still say that means a DOUBLE ACTION trigger pull is mandated for the first shot.

eharte, with practice you should be waaaaaayyyy quicker firing that 229's 1st shot double action than if you cocked the hammer first.  Dry-fire,dry-fire,dry-fire.....no sight movement!

[eharte]

Tdean,

The issue was not how quickly I could shoot...the double action pull on the gun is twelve pounds, the single action is around 4-5 pounds. When shooting long shots, thirty to fifty yards, I am clearly more accurate with single action. I have practiced dry fire, and it appears I am holding the gun steady using double action, but on the long shots I obviously am not as steady with double action vs single action.

My resolution to the issue will be to shoot the first shot double action, assume I missed, and then shoot the whole course single action. It was a nice try (ggg). Thanks for all the replies.

Ed Harte

[Vince Pinto]

You shoot IPSC matches with targets at 50 yards ??? Damn! At 50 yards the front sight of my trusty Glock 21 would completely conceal the target .........

There was a stage at WSXI in Brazil where you had to shoot a mini-popper at just 25 yards from inside a hut.

I was so depressed after it took me three shots to hit the bugger with my Glock 21, I was about to fix my bayonet. However I felt a whole lot better when Todd Jarrett (who eventually won the match) took two shots to hit it with his scoped racegun!

I still had a lousy stage but at least I regained some of my self-esteem.

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 11:09 pm on April 30, 2002)

[Carlos]

Brian published an excellent article in the now-defunct Gun Games magazine that outlined his view of what is wrong with IPSC. I agree with his views, especially his view (paraphrased - forgive my mistakes) that the majority of IPSC matches lack any targets set out to 30, 40 and 50 yards.  The greater point he made was that in most of the competitions, the top competitors never miss a shot; the only competition is how fast they can make a perfect score. Ideally, IPSC would have such challenging shots in a stage  that MOST competitors would ocasionally miss a target - yes that is correct, an expected MISS.

Sounds like there was a good stage design in the Philippines if it forced Todd to take a second shot and forced a limited/production shooter to take 3 shots to make it.  I am all in favor of at least one 50 yard IPSC or USPSA target per match.

[Vince Pinto]

WSXII in Cebu was quite a shocker for most competitors, because the Match Director (and Course Designer), was my evil twin brother Chepit "The Swinger" Dulay.

And by "The Swinger" I don't mean Austin Powers, baby!

If I'm not mistaken, every stage either had swingers, sliders, runners, bobbers, droppers, turners, twisters, flippers, floppers, rock 'n' rollers or a triple somersault with a half-twist.

In fact, if we didn't threaten to break his legs, Chepit would surely have put a swinger in the chrono stage! Can you imagine the scenario? Yes, you made Major, however you got two misses and a procedural!

At the end of each day, we had to give the competitors pills for motion sickness. Then again,  it was a World Championship, and the courses of fire were certainly worthy for inclusion in IPSC's premier competition.

[38supPat]

---

Quote: from Vince Pinto on 9:07 am on April 30, 2002

You shoot IPSC matches with targets at 50 yards ??? Damn! At 50 yards the front sight of my trusty Glock 21 would completely conceal the target .........

There was a stage at WSXI in Brazil where you had to shoot a mini-popper at just 25 yards from inside a hut.

I was so depressed after it took me three shots to hit the bugger with my Glock 21, I was about to fix my bayonet. However I felt a whole lot better when Todd Jarrett (who eventually won the match) took two shots to hit it with his scoped racegun!

I still had a lousy stage but at least I regained some of my self-esteem.

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 11:09 pm on April 30, 2002)

---

We set up a match once with two IPSC targets and two pepper poppers ar 40yds. A glock shooter whined at length about how hard it would be to shoot...in the end he fired 6 shots and had 4 A's and two steel...while there were open shooters (more than one) who dumped up to three mags at them and still took multiple misses on the paper AND  steel ...LOL

Pat

[Duane Thomas]

"A glock shooter whined at length about how hard it would be to shoot...in the end he fired 6 shots and had 4 A's and two steel."

I bet he thought it was okay then, right?

[3GunF1Guy]

So let me see if I got this right, If I cycle the action on my HK USP, Sig 226, ect... before I take my first shot and by doing so I have now cocked the hammer, I am now in a Limited or Open class? Hey, This could happen, like if I forgot to cycle one into the chamber before I put it back in the holster to start the stage. Or it didn't feed because I didn't have the mag in all the way.

[Vince Pinto]

You would be relegated to Open Division. See Rule 6.2.6.

[Phil Dunlop]

Vince,

If the chambered round misfired and you racked would the penalty still apply?

P.D.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Phil,

No, Rule 6.2.6 would not apply provided the first shot was double-action.

In other words, the competitor drew his gun, pulled the trigger, which caused the hammer to rise then fall on the round in the chamber (i.e. the criteria for a double action first shot has been satisfied).

The fact that the first round was a dud and no bullet was launched is irrelevant.

The competitor did as he was expected for his division, and we certainly don't want to "double-penalise" him - he's already suffered a time penalty and an interruption to his Zen !