Proposed Shotgun Rules - Bogus!

[Carlos]

Reviewed the proposed IPSC shotgun rules posted on USPSA.org/members. I realize that those are IPSC rules, not USPSA. But I have to take issue w/ some of the proposals; For example, proposed rule 2.1.9.6 states: "It shall not be permissible to shoot solid slug ammunition at steel plates." Although there seems to be an earlier caveat about shooting slugs at poppers, the part about slugs never being used on steel, well that is short-sighted. This rule is pre-mature; especially in light of the new frangible slugs under development (though do they define what they mean by "solid" slug??!?). As shotgun stands here in the US, we use solid lead slugs on steel plates at ranges as close as 40 yards without incident. I know there have been low-velocity roll-back issues at past 3guns, but I believe that the targets in question were much closer than 40 yards. An outright ban is not called for.  Moreover, allowing slugs on poppers and not steel plates makes little sense to me; I have seen a rapid follow up shot on a popper hit the popper while it was falling at a 45 degree angle; at which point it was effectively a launching ramp for the slug! (good argument for forward falling poppers) Have never seen that happen with a steel plate.

Moreover, the part about some matches requiring "fiber wads" is too much; I have not seen a fiber wad in years (other than the ones attached to the base of Brenneke type slugs) and would not even guese where to buy them/how to load one. Where did such a rule come from? Are environmental rules in Europe driving some of these changes? I'd like to hear the thoughts of our fellow IPSC shooters from the UK as to what they think of these rules.

On a side note, they seem to propose eliminating comps from limited rifle unless factory installed as original equipment. Another arbitration bait rule, IMHO.  

Please take a look at the propose IPSC (not USPSA) rules and contact Mike V. w/ your thoughts (good, bad, or otherwise) prior to the World Shoot in SA. This matters as we will soon see the world 3 gun competition come to the US; these rules WILL affect US competitors in that venue. DVC, D.

(Edited by Carlos at 10:11 am on Aug. 22, 2002)

[kbear38S]

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On a side note, they seem to propose eliminating comps from limited rifle unless factory installed as original equipment.

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Yeah, given the zillion+ AR shops and mfgs, how are they possibly going to know what was original equipment.

The no slugs on steel rule sucks.

[EricW]

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Quote: from Carlos on 5:50 am on Aug. 22, 2002

Moreover, the part about some matches requiring "fiber wads" is too much;

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Carlos,

I will have to defend biodegradable wads in principle.  I don't necessarily support a fiber wad mandate - as biodegradable plastics should fill the bill here soon.  Plastic wads are becoming a major trash problem at ranges.  I've been to clays ranges where they nearly obscure the ground - it's like carpet.  It's not so much an enviromental issue as a cosmetic and expense issue.  Sooner or later someone has to pick all that crap up and we're going to end up paying for it.

My $.02,

E

[Vince Pinto]

Carlos,

I'm impressed. You already know the outcome of the vote on the venue for the first World 3 Gun Match?

[Carlos]

Point well taken, Vince; World 3gn venue is TBD. If anyone is taking bets, please put $5 Dollars/Euros on the US for me.

Agree on the wad issue that plastic wad trash is or will become an inescapable environmental problem.  Much like the looming switch to lead free shooting, it is a hassle we are going to have to accept someday and I do not believe that once it is fazed in over time and ammo is available, that will have a great impact on the sport as it is known today. If they are made available, I can adapt to fiber wads in USPSA or IPSC w/o a major problem.

As for the far flung future, lets hope the International Olympic Committee idea of "gun powder free" Olypic shooting sports never becomes reality. Trap and skeet w/ BB guns?? No thank you.  

[Neil Beverley]

Carlos

The fibre wads only rule can only be used if there is a genuine need (and not just because a match organiser bought some ammo cheap and wants to sell it).  

I've shot at more than one match in the UK which have been on farmland (livestock) or forestry land.  Basically the conditions imposed by the land owner have been "fibre wads or nothing".  Given the choice ...... ??

Actually I know of a venue that asks for fibre wads with birdshot cartridges which are readily available but permits plastic wads for buck and slug because cartridges are not so easily available.  This is a good compromise and restricts the "mess" to set areas - easier to clean up.

The critical thing here is that it is not a rule that is automatically imposed at all matches but instead provides for venues where there may be a problem.  In some IPSC Regions it may never need to be applied.  Please note that the rule requires the requirement to be published in advance.

I think the wording of the rule needs to be changed from "fibre" to "biodegradeable" next time around.

I hope my comments are a help.

[Vince Pinto]

Neil,

Thanks for chipping in.

I have no problem answering IPSC Pistol rules questions, but IPSC Shotgun/Rifle questions are not my forte by any means.

[Carlos]

Neil: another thanks for the input from the UK; I understand that since the handgun ban, ISPC shotgun has become the dominant sport. Whenever you travel to this side of the pond, rest assured there will be an assortment of Glocks, 1911s, ARs, etc. waiting for you at my house if you are up for a practice day or local match in the DC area.

 

[Patrick Sweeney]

We have special plates we built for shotgun slugs.  We only use them for slugs, (No rifles allowed) and slugs are not allowed on our poppers.  Used properly, there is no safety problem.

As for degradeable wads, one year we shot 3-gun through the winter when our poppers got frozen to the ground.  (Late rain, early freeze, poppers stuck 'til late March.)

We used the same range, and same popper array all winter, October through March, (we moved the shooting positions) and in the spring that range was ankle deep in shotgun wads.  The range crew hated it when the spring workday arrived, as they raked up and fulled a dumpster with wads.

We used the same range for all the shotgun shooting because that's where the poppers were.  And of course it got all the shotgun practice, too.

I can see where bales of used wads might be a problem on ranges or land leased for matches.  It was only a problem for us in that the range crew grumbled a bit.  We own our own range and don't have to share it with non-IPSC shooters.

[Neil Beverley]

Carlos

V many thanks for your offer.  Generally we have found that many shooters from all over the world have been happy to help and this has helped a lot.

Sadly the UKPSA has lost a lot of members and only a fairly small number actually made the transition over to active  IPSC shotgunning.  Quite a lot took up clay shooting but some gave up completely.  We also saw the development of a new discipline of "Mini Rifle" using .22 semi autos, mostly 10-22s.  The discipline is based on Practical Pistol but with rifles and much smaller targets (scaled down Classic targets).  The guns have seen a lot of development with typical pistol Open division bits being added on.  The members shooting this seem to enjoy it - it may not be pistol but they're still pulling a trigger.

Also there is a small number of people who have tried to replicate pp by using Co2 handguns.

Shotgun matches have been going on a steady basis for years - I've been shooting SG since 1986.  There has been an increase in the last 4/5 years and continues to grow in the UK but our firearms laws are still tough.

The Italian Region is hosting the IPSC SG European Championships (Level IV) next year and there has been a general increase in interest but it has become apparent that there were many more people shooting various forms of Practical SG are over the place but it hasn't been co-ordinated.  I am convinced that we will see much more activity throughout IPSC and particularly in Europe as a result of the new rule book and the European Championships and about time too!

Sorry all! The above was a little long winded and a bit off the subject but hopefully you might be interested.

Back on subject .......

I think there is a little confusion about the new rules.  They are not that new and were first up for discussion in the summer of 2001.  They were adopted for trial for 1 year starting in January of this year and this year has only seen minor changes, corrections and updates.  The rules about slugs on steel haven't changed.

It is a shame that we couldn't have started the debate a few weeks ago in time to have considerted a change to the rules in time for the IPSC World Assembly.

I don't think that it would be right to write the rules to take into account the new frangible slugs.  They are not widely available and until they are they couldn't properly be considered for International rules.

When the rule was written opinions were canvassed about whether to allow or not allow and at what minimum distance.  There was only minimal feedback and the rule was eventually written as it is now.  We don't ever shoot slugs at steel targets in the UK, not that that matters as far as the rule book is concerned.

The next time we start on a rewrite or update of the rules we can look at this subject again but it is too late now for the 2003 rule book.

I agree with your view point about forward falling poppers but would add that the possible ricochet problem with backwards falling poppers isn't just restricted to slugs and can be a problem for handgun and rifle rounds as well.

Whilst not ideal I guess in the meantime you can carry on shooting slugs at steel plates providing the USPSA agrees and acts in accordance with 3.3.1.

Are there any more views or thoughts on this subject?

[Carlos]

Your thorough and informative post about sums it up; perhaps the generally positive experience with slugs on steel in the United States will lead to a revision of the IPSC rules in the future.

As for the forward falling poppers, my only encounter with them thus far came at Fredericksburg, VA, where I understand the range is involved in a lawsuit brought about after traditional poppers launched a round off the range. Sadly, a neighbor was struck and the suit followed. There is a lot more to it, but suffice to say that the particular accident in question could not have happened with forward falling poppers.

With world population likely to increase, we should expect people to live closer to our ranges as time goes on.

[Vince Pinto]

Two follow-ups for this thread:

1) At the WSXIII General Assembly in South Africa, the two primary candidates to host the World 3 Gun match (South Africa & the USA), were unfortunately still not in a position to make a firm committment.

As a result, it is very unlikely the match can be held before 2004, and the venue remains uncertain.

2) If you have any Shotgun rules suggestions, please send them to Neil Beverley, as the rules review process is ongoing.

[Neil Beverley]

Further to the reply from Vince I would advise that the proposed revisions and updates for the IPSC SG rules were accepted for 2003.

But there is a proviso and this is that the rules need to be further considered alongside the handgun and rifle rules so that proper commonality (wherever possible) is achieved.  This therefore gives us a chance to re-visit any rules that would benefit from a change.  Of course we can't assume that everything will get approved but at least everything can be considered.  We also must remember that we must produce rules that are appropriate for IPSC shooting and acceptable in all Regions.  And we must attempt to write rules that won't cause significant problems in other Regions.

With regards to the subject of slugs on steel targets: what minimal distances are suggested?

Should the distance be the same for plates and poppers?

Does anyone think that there should be a suggestion for restrictions on backwards falling poppers (I doubt that this would be approved) or minimal thickness of steel?

I am also interested in peoples views on the min and max round counts per stage and per match.  I am aware of one Region who would like SG stages restricted to a max of around 15 rounds but personally I would not be happy with this restriction.

What distances are you shooting the average target at?

What are the views on unloaded starts?  These feature in UK matches and at least make sure that everyone starts equal regardless of gun capacity.  The difference between a handgun with an 8 round mag and one with a 15 round mag is one reload but in SG an extra 7 reloads (assuming no speed loaders).

The queries above are just some initial thoughts and I'm sure there will be others from me and hopefully from others as well.  I await your replies with interest.

Please note that after next year the intention will be to leave the rules alone for some time so we have just a few months to consider any new ideas.

Is everyone happy to carry on in this thread under the heading of "Proposed Shotgun Rules" or should we consider starting a new one?

As requested by Vince can you please direct SG rule comments to me as I will be particularly involved in the process of producing next years proposals.  Thanks.

More soon.