Winning And Practice

[P.E. Kelley]

This forum is a haven, nay a bastion of knowledgeable people whom are most willing to help each other to better their shooting-selves. A common thread is “what match performance gains will I / can I expect” from brand “X” compensator, ammo, bullet, choke tube, scope , sling, hammer, sear, stock, barrel or whatever the latest J.C. Whitney crap we think we need to hang on our guns. The many times veiled answer is PRACTICE!!!

I hope not to be banished or branded but lift the veil I must.

I am not saying that the best shooters don’t put stock in their gear or experiment with it to look for an edge, but once they have reliable gear they get to the range and shoot. They dry fire, they wear the skin off their fingers loading shotguns, they field test their rifles to verify ZERO and practice to reduce their weaknesses. Kurt, Kelly, Bennie, Taran and Matt etc. win with guns and gear that most importantly run 100% and with that gear know how to place their projectiles on target because they practice! They see the big picture…. Practice! Money spent on ammo and that ammo spent on good practice, is of more value than ANY ITEM YOU CAN BUY AND HANG ON YOUR GUN.

It is obvious that I am not sponsored by anyone.

Patrick

[EricW]

Amen Brother Patrick!

[Nik Habicht]

It's been a while, but Steve Anderson had an early saying: Pick one and practice!

I'd modify that slightly: Pick one. Verify it's reliable or make it so. Practice (if you want to get somewhere in this decade) or don't (if like me you're more interested in the journey, than the destination.) Above all ---- shoot. Not only will you get better, you'll have fun! And if you're not spending money on the latest crutch, or on ammo, then that'll be more money for entry fees. I don't know nearly what Steve Anderson does, so I'll repeat his quote once more:

Pick one and practice!

[kruger]

The old joke goes:

Q: How do you get to Carnegie Hall?

A: Practice!

In the martial arts world, the analog to the gear head are the folks who chase the school of the day. They drift from one style to another, from one teacher to another, always searching for the "perfect" martial art. Meanwhile, their understanding and abilities are shallow and limited. The serious students just train, don't worry about the newest fad, they just train, once they have found a teacher they stick with that teacher, and just train.

Respectfully,

Mark Kruger

Edited July 7, 2006 by kruger

[DMS42]

Hey, it never ends. There is always someone that thinks that buying the newest, latest, gee whiz gadget will improve his scores. Sometimes it does. Most of the time you are better off spending the money on ammo. Practice, practice and then do some more. I've wore out several M1A barrels in practice. Also have worn out several .45 barrels and completly worn out a High Standard .22. If you want to get better, buy lots of ammo and shoot it up.

I also say that it is all practice. The match that you are at is just practice for the next match. And that is practice for your next practice session. It is all practice.

[P.E. Kelley]

Wow we are all very luck have DMS on this board!

Welcome mister!

In case you think he is pulling your leg about the worn out barrels his avatar represents his earning DOUBLE DISTINGUISHED medals. One for rifle and one for pistol. These are won only in head to head NRA pistol Bullseye and Hi-Power rifle competition and take years to earn a rare and high honor indeed.

Patrick

[Steve Anderson]

Yeah, pick one and practice.

Works pretty good.

SA

[kellyn]

Preach on Brother Pat! Give me a hallejulah!

If you look at number of topics in the 3 Gun forums, you'll see 950 topics in the Rifle/Technical forum, 822 in the Shotgun/Technical forum and a paltry 138 in the Technique forum. That's a backwards ratio if you ask me. Obviously you are not going to win the 3 Gun nationals shooting an M1 carbine. Equipment is important. Development of equipment is an important and vital aspect to practical shooting. And we all like to tinker. I'm constantly fiddling with things. For example I switched from a 5 in STI to a 6 in long slide Fat Free .40 in Limited (and saw an improvement in score) and I'm currently messing with a POF piston driven AR upper and a Leupold SR/T scope. I have never seen ANYONE fiddle with equipment like TGO. His stuff is in constant flux. But many - even most - tend to focus on the gear aspect of the sport far out of proportion to its import.

But skill resulting from hard earned experience, training and practice is what wins. Come out to Rio Salado and see TGO whip everyone in Open class shooting a Single Stack or XD. Witness Bennie Cooley whipping all but one scoped shooter on the long range rifle course with his iron sighted AR at the 2005 USPSA Multi Gun Nationals. Skill like that is the result of endless hours of work, much more difficult than putting a brand new XYX comp on your gun.

Double Distinguished = Great Shooter. Welcome aboard DMS42

[TreblePlink]

Very true, but there might be an exception: What does Brian call it - "Trick of the day"? I have found that when I made some minor mod which I thought would give me a slight edge or an improvement, the psychological effect was that it actually made me shoot better, temporarily at least - but it was due to some motivational boost rather than the technical advantage that the mod supposedly created.

[Dan Sierpina]

Kelly's right that Robbie is constantly playing with his equipment. Heck, I think he has the technique down, why not? Besides, if you don't push the envelope, how do you know what might give you a bit more edge. But, Robbie is one of a small group that can do that, and get away with it. I'm sure his weekly shooting is far more than than the people Kelly was refering to with questions about carriers and low mass buffers.

Usually when you make little changes or even a different gun, an improvement is seen. Reason? You pay closer attention to what your'e doing, technique. It's been said sooo many times....pay attention to the basics and you'll improve.

[Chris Keen]

I also say that it is all practice. The match that you are at is just practice for the next match. And that is practice for your next practice session. It is all practice.

When you've realised this ............... you've realised that WE NEVER STOP PRACTICING.

So, I ask you all ............ where does this "journey" / game / hobby end ?????

It dosent!

So, then I ask you ................ exactly how good can you become ?????

You'll never know until you get there ....................

Edited July 7, 2006 by CHRIS KEEN

[Flyin40]

This forum is a haven, nay a bastion of knowledgeable people whom are most willing to help each other to better their shooting-selves. A common thread is “what match performance gains will I / can I expect” from brand “X” compensator, ammo, bullet, choke tube, scope , sling, hammer, sear, stock, barrel or whatever the latest J.C. Whitney crap we think we need to hang on our guns. The many times veiled answer is PRACTICE!!!

I hope not to be banished or branded but lift the veil I must.

I am not saying that the best shooters don’t put stock in their gear or experiment with it to look for an edge, but once they have reliable gear they get to the range and shoot. They dry fire, they wear the skin off their fingers loading shotguns, they field test their rifles to verify ZERO and practice to reduce their weaknesses. Kurt, Kelly, Bennie, Taran and Matt etc. win with guns and gear that most importantly run 100% and with that gear know how to place their projectiles on target because they practice! They see the big picture…. Practice! Money spent on ammo and that ammo spent on good practice, is of more value than ANY ITEM YOU CAN BUY AND HANG ON YOUR GUN.

It is obvious that I am not sponsored by anyone.

Patrick

There are many threads on here about which comp, guide rod, springs or whatever. I think practice is emphasized here on this forum more than any other forum that I have seen. Time and time again someone new will come and ask about this and that and just about everytime its stated this and that works well but it will mean nothing without practice.

I can't count how many times guys come on the forums and ask which gun and they should buy to get them to the next class. They are told, buy something cheap and use the rest of the money you saved to practice.

When it comes down to it no matter what gear is used the one who is most prepared will almost always win.

Flyin40

[Loves2Shoot]

I've seen tons more improvement by dollars spent on training than gear. Spend 2K on a new guns or 2k on training. That's a no brainer to me.

[kruger]

So, the first hurdle is realizing how important practice is.

The hurdle I'm facing right now: How do I improve my practice?

I've seen and shot with folks who have attended all sorts of classes and put large amounts of time and money into shooting, and still don't shoot very well. There are limitations to the quantity of practice I can involve myself in. Limits set by available time and money. So, if I can't have unlimited quantity, can I improve quality?

I suspect that some of those folks who don't improve despite practice and classes are just slinging lead down range with little to no attention to what they are doing.

So, the goal for me: learn how to be more attentive and focused on what I'm doing right now . I think it is a worthy goal, and can be applied to my martial arts practice as well, if not to just about everything I do.

I doubt gadgets will help me with this goal.

Respectfully,

Mark Kruger

[Merlin Orr]

I've seen tons more improvement by dollars spent on training than gear. Spend 2K on a new guns or 2k on training. That's a no brainer to me.

If I'd have spent on ammo what I have spent on tricked out guns.....

How far would 2,000,000 rounds in practice take me. More than a low B perhaps...?

[EricW]

...and that ammo spent on good practice, is of more value than ANY ITEM YOU CAN BUY AND HANG ON YOUR GUN.

Patrick

[Loves2Shoot]

Training doesn't just mean bullets or weekend classes. Supervised practice from someone who knows what there doing and can motivate you and keep you on he right track. That is more what I'm talking about.

I have a shooter that went from no where to winning C class by a good margin at Area 1 in 3 months, with very few IPSC matches (3-4) under his belt. He had a 14th stage finish, and had only shot swingers and drop turners ONCE. Less than 2K in training and he is knocking on the door of A and M and has has a couple of GM times on classifiers.

Kruger, come to Bend sometime and you'll see what I'm talking about.

[Flyin40]

So, the first hurdle is realizing how important practice is.

The hurdle I'm facing right now: How do I improve my practice?

I've seen and shot with folks who have attended all sorts of classes and put large amounts of time and money into shooting, and still don't shoot very well. There are limitations to the quantity of practice I can involve myself in. Limits set by available time and money. So, if I can't have unlimited quantity, can I improve quality?

I suspect that some of those folks who don't improve despite practice and classes are just slinging lead down range with little to no attention to what they are doing.

So, the goal for me: learn how to be more attentive and focused on what I'm doing right now . I think it is a worthy goal, and can be applied to my martial arts practice as well, if not to just about everything I do.

I doubt gadgets will help me with this goal.

Respectfully,

Mark Kruger

Mark,

I firmly believe that you need to understand what you are practicing. A full understanding makes it alot easier and alot quicker to get a grasp what your trying to learn. There are some things that can't be taught or learned through reading or watching a video. For me it was calling the shot. People are able to tell you what its like but until you experience your just trying to figure it out.

If your working on grip and you go to the range and don't know squat about how to grip the gun correctly its going to take awhile to figure it out. It can be done but the learning curve will be large. If you do your homework and have an understanding of what happens with too much pressure here or there or whatever you will be able to tell whats going on. Don't get me wrong. Its not like you can read something or watch a video and expect to go out to the range and do everything correctly. You will still have to learn through trial and error. By doing your homework I mean read or watch something on proper technique then take it to dryfiring. Once you have a better understanding in dryfire then take it to live fire. Some things need to go right to live fire.

This is where majority people get lost. This is not a sport that very many people if any have the opportunity to have someone watch over them constantly and correct or tell them what they are doing wrong. I think the most important thing is being able to tell what is going on or what is happening. For you to be able to tell whats going on you have to do your homework. You have to be able to step back mentally and be able figure out what you just did and why. If your able to do that it takes very little effort to correct something. If you have no clue what just happened how will you be able to fix anything??

If I had to place a percentage of effort I put out in moving up from one class to the next it would be as follows

C class to B class

Dryfire 20%

Live Fire 60%

Watching Videos, reading, and visualization of proper technique to be practiced in dryfire and live fire 20%

B class to A class

Dryfire 25%

Live Fire 25%

Watching videos, reading and visualization of proper technique to be practiced in dryfire and live fire 50%

A class to M class

Dryfire 25%

Live Fire 15%

Watching videos, reading and visualization of proper technique to be practiced in dryfire and live fire 60%

M class to performing at a M class level consistently(I'm still working on this one)

Dryfire 0%

Live Fire 10% only shot in matches and about 4 practices

Mental Preparation 90% (This is where I read "With Winning in Mind")

One thing I don't recommend is over analyzing technique. Don't start worrying about if your gun should be an inch closer to your body on the draw. You can get sucked into that and you can waste alot of time there. Understand the technique and just shoot the gun.

So to finally answer your question "How do I improve my practice"

Know what you are practicing

Understand what you are practicing

Practice like it is a match(mentally prepare yourself for the practice)

Hope it helps

Flyin40

Edited July 8, 2006 by Flyin40

[benny hill]

Merlin, that low B class is about to change once you get here & start shooting & traveling with us.

[tightloop]

Get the best equipment that you can up front then, spend lots of time and $$ practicing...get the gear worked out first then the rest will follow ...you can't improve if you are constantly trying to get your stuff to run and it is sub par to the rest of the shooters in your division...

My .02

[wide45]

Get the best equipment that you can up front then

I don't agree.

Get good equipment. Beat it up. Wear it out. Then you will know what you need.

[kevin c]

The late magician Doug Henning once met a fan who told him, "I'd give a million dollars to do what you can do!".

He replied (as best I can remember),"The price for the skill I have is not a million dollars. The price is eight hours of practice a day , three hundred sixty-five days a year, for twenty years."

I'm hoping to make at least A class in a little less time, but not practicing won't help, and neither will a fancier gun or accessories.

Edited July 13, 2006 by kevin c

[Chris Keen]

A Class is highly over-rated. Once you get there, you realize that you have always had A Class skills ...... they were right there inside you all along ... just waiting to be polished up a little.

Now go PRACTICE. And don't worry about how long anything takes to happen in your life. Because when it does happen ..... you'll be pleasantly surprised at how quickly it came along, and how easy it was to make happen.