Uspsa Production Holster Requirements Vs 5.2 6

[BritinUSA]

Here is the text of rule 5.2.6

5.2.6

IPSC Handgun matches will not require the use of a particular type or brand of holster

. However, the Range Master may deem that a competitor’s holster is unsafe and order that it be improved to his satisfaction, failing which it must be withdrawn from the match.

And from the US Production Division requirements we have:

Competition holsters of the race gun type specifically not allowed

.

This seems to be a contradiction as the US Production Division mandates a type of holster that cannot be used but 5.2.6 says we can't do that. Or have I got this wrong ?

[wide45]

The rule sez that everyone can't be required to buy a Fobtech model X holster. You can use any holster that meets the division requirements.

[AikiDale]

US Production rules do not require any type or brand of holster. They do specify standards a holster must meet:

23. Competition holsters of the race gun type specifically not allowed. For clarification:

ALL retention features of the holster MUST be used. All holsters must fully

cover the trigger when the pistol is holstered. The front of holsters for autos

may be cut no lower than ¼-inch below the ejection port. Revolver holsters

may be cut no lower than half way down the cylinder.

[Chuck Anderson]

It's not requiring the use of a specific type or brand. You can use any of 100 different holsters for US Production. That would certainly seem to preclude and specificity. It does restrict holsters, eliminating race holsters but the rule doesn't say this can't be done.

[Steve Moneypenny]

That's the lawyer speak.. it does not "require" a certain type.. it Bans a certain type. now the definition of race gun type.. hummmm that's rough.

[BritinUSA]

I appreciate the responses, but this line:

The front of holsters for autos may be cut no lower than ¼-inch below the ejection port.

Indicates a type of holster, the type where the front of the holster is cut no lower than 1/4 below the ejection port.

IPSC rules have no such restrictions on holsters for Production, I'm wondering why we have one.

[D.Hayden]

I think the intention was to have production be as stock as possible.. Production with race holsters seems to be an oxymoron.

The 1/4" rule just helps eliminate a lit of the race holsters I think.

[Vlad]

USPSA has these production rules to make a division which will appeal to those who want to shoot with realistic gear. I think that the holster rules for production and SS are a great idea on that alone, plus I've never seen anyone ever drop a gun out of a production holster while bending over to pick up brass or knocking it out against a table, but I've seen EVERY type of race holster drop a gun on the ground at some point or another. And I haven't even been at this game to long.

In my opinion, race holsters should only be allowed in open (and I guess modified). Production, SS, L10, and Limited would use production type holsters in my world. Of course, this isn't my world, so I'll be happy and content with the real holsters being used in production and SS.

Lets face it, a good shooter should not see more then one or two tens of a second from a DOH vs a race holster. I think that is a worthy loss to avoid droped guns and to stay closer to the practical origins of the game. But I'm odd that way.

[wide45]

he front of holsters for autos may be cut no lower than ¼-inch below the ejection port.

Indicates a type of holster, the type where the front of the holster is cut no lower than 1/4 below the ejection port.

There are many types of holsters that are cut no lower than 1/4 below the ejection port.

[AikiDale]

USPSA has these production rules to make a division which will appeal to those who want to shoot with realistic gear. I think that the holster rules for production and SS are a great idea on that alone, plus I've never seen anyone ever drop a gun out of a production holster while bending over to pick up brass or knocking it out against a table, but I've seen EVERY type of race holster drop a gun on the ground at some point or another. And I haven't even been at this game to long.

In my opinion, race holsters should only be allowed in open (and I guess modified). Production, SS, L10, and Limited would use production type holsters in my world. Of course, this isn't my world, so I'll be happy and content with the real holsters being used in production and SS.

Lets face it, a good shooter should not see more then one or two tens of a second from a DOH vs a race holster. I think that is a worthy loss to avoid droped guns and to stay closer to the practical origins of the game. But I'm odd that way.

I can not think of a safer holster than my Guga Ribas. The gun locks into it if I remember to put the lock on. Non of my ersatz "realistic" leather has the security of my race gun holster. I think it has more to do with just worshiping the past and hating change.

[Vlad]

Woah there stranger ... I'm far from a past worshiper, check out my objections to the SS division rules in other threads. Let me ask you this ... Would you carry a gun daily in a Guga Ribas, at the store, in the woods, at work? Note I said the primary reason has to do with practical considerations. Also ... what happens if you forget to lock your holster and you bumb it? I didn't say that race holster would drop guns by looking funny at them or if used as designed, but people forget to lock their holsters every now and then. Not as much of a consideration with a DOH for example.

[Flexmoney]

BritinUSA,

I see the point you are making.

Sounds like the wording could be changed to add "...as long as the holster meets the division requirements". Or, words to that end.

Other than that, since these two rules could possibly be seen to be in conflict...well, it is easy enough to decipher that correct/applicable rule here.

[Chriss Grube]

Here we go again....rules change time.

[BritinUSA]

Here we go again....rules change time.

I am not advocating a change to the rules with regard to this issue. I just think it indicates a contradiction that may cause confusion. If a new shooter to USPSA wanted to shoot Production he can download the gun-list, if he has questions about the type of holster then he can do an online search of the rule book which shows that there are no restrictions on holster types and the production division statement that indicates a restriction on the type of holster.

When USPSA added it's own holster restrictions for this division they probably did not notice the contradiction in 5.2.6 or 5.2.6 could have changed since USPSA added it's division. I don't know, all I know is that it is confusing for a newbie.

I'll email J. Amidon and see what he says...

[raz-0]

"5.2.6 IPSC Handgun matches will not require the use of a particular type or brand of holster. "

And from the US Production Division requirements we have:

"Competition holsters of the race gun type specifically not allowed."

One says you can't require a specific type of holster. You can't say a blade-tech or safariland is required.

However, that doesn't stop you from prohibiting something by brand.

Prohibitng a group of holsters is not requiring a group of holsters other than in the most tortured intro to logic class. Even then, it certainly isn't requiring a specific holster.

There are plenty of holsters out there that do not cover the trigger. These are disallowed as unsafe. Because they are disallowed as unsafe under the rules, does that mean we are requiring competitors to use a specific holster? No.

Same thing applies here.

[Flexmoney]

I agree with BritinUSA.

We aren't looking to change the rule here. And, I don't think anybody is looking to get around the rule. Any change would merely be for clarity...I can't see any harm in that?

[BritinUSA]

Here is the response from John Amidon:

5.2.6 has changed a little since the 2001 US edition, which at that time it was 5.3.5, but the language of will not require the use of a particular type or brand is still the same since the inception of Production division back in 2003.

With the language we have in our Production division, we are not requiring you to use a specific type or brand, we are telling you though, what you cannot use. Much like 5.2.7.1 through 5.2.7.4.

The division criteria is posted in the rule books on the web, they are also sent to each and every new competitor, our hope is that they will be read and understood prior to purchasing equipment, even then, the rules change, and should be kept up with by the members.

We have the fastest means of communication available, and I am at my computer 7 days a week, even on travel or vacation, and I usually get back to members within 24 hours with an answer. Many folks email me rather than look it up, but that is OK, that is why I am here.

This is pretty clear to me, so perhaps the Mods can close this thread.

Thank you

[OpnBlstr]

US Production rules do not require any type or brand of holster. They do specify standards a holster must meet:

23. Competition holsters of the race gun type specifically not allowed. For clarification:

ALL retention features of the holster MUST be used. All holsters must fully

cover the trigger when the pistol is holstered. The front of holsters for autos

may be cut no lower than ¼-inch below the ejection port. Revolver holsters

may be cut no lower than half way down the cylinder.

What if (and this is strictly theoretical although we were discussing it here today) someone takes a "race gun type" holster and modifies it to meet the clarifications? Specifically if a shooter took a CR Speed, added a loose hoop of light Kydex around the front screwing it to the plastic body, and cut it no lower than 0.25" below the ejection port. The holster retention device is used, it is cut no lower than 0.25", and the trigger is fully covered. In addition the pistol meets the 50mm rule as well.

[Singlestack Wonder]

Here we go again....rules change time.

I believe that the intent of the holster rules for Production was to allow holsters that were suitable for all day carry (concealed or not).

USPSA does seem to change its rules quite often. In other threads its mentioned that there was some talk of Production division going away due to participation compared to the Limited and Open divisions. Is that still the case?

[TxD]

[

What if (and this is strictly theoretical although we were discussing it here today) someone takes a "race gun type" holster and modifies it to meet the clarifications? Specifically if a shooter took a CR Speed, added a loose hoop of light Kydex around the front screwing it to the plastic body, and cut it no lower than 0.25" below the ejection port. The holster retention device is used, it is cut no lower than 0.25", and the trigger is fully covered. In addition the pistol meets the 50mm rule as well.

When you put that rascal behind the hipbone, as required in USPSA Production

you won't find any advantage.

Edited August 22, 2006 by TxD

[BritinUSA]

In other threads its mentioned that there was some talk of Production division going away due to participation compared to the Limited and Open divisions. Is that still the case?

I can't see Production division going away. We are starting to see sponsorship from gun manufacturers such as CZ, Smith&Wesson, Springfield Armory with the XD, Glock etc.

Turning away this level of support from the gun industry would be insane. Production division will be here for a long time to come, what form it will take in the future is anyone's guess.

[OpnBlstr]

In other threads its mentioned that there was some talk of Production division going away due to participation compared to the Limited and Open divisions. Is that still the case?

Here in Oklahoma it seems to be coming back. I used to shoot Production almost exclusively but stopped because it is no fun to go to a 60 person match with three production shooters and you can't even compare scores with limited or l-10.