Range Commands

[lynn jones]

how often do you get the wrong range commands at a major match?  and does it bother you?  do you correct the  RO?

lynn (no!,  the "shooter"  is not ready) jones

[BrianH]

Don't remember wrong range commands, but I have been standing there on the line, waiting for the RO to stop running his mouth at someone behind me, and realize that I'm ready to go.....

[kbear38S]

Take a class from Jarrett. You'll learn to respond to "Stoke 'em up cowboy."

[Larry White]

Never had it happen at a big match but some club matches usted to be very bad, I didnt correct for a long time and even now I'm not real picky as long as the ro is clear about what they want. I'v had a guy tell me to"charge that puppy up and let,s go" then two shooters later he's all over a new guy for improper loading. Thats when I started explaning or correcting whichever you wish to call it. Too many local clubs just don't have enough trained RO's but a guy thats willing to step up and take the timer usually wants to to do the right thing, give him a hand, most times he will thank you. But, some people........................         Larry

[Phil Dunlop]

I remember being a bit irritated by an RO always asking if I understood the cousre of fire, only because he wanted a response, which was a distraction from my usual routine.

What totally pissed me off at the same match was watching a shooter on the line checking with the RO on the fine detail of the start position, all loaded and making ready and being told 'didn't you listen to the briefing!' A great time to enter into a debate.

Really think ROs with that kind of tolerance would do the sport a great service if they'd retire!

P.D.

[Loves2Shoot]

I would have to agree with the RO, you should know the start position when you go to the line. Could you imagine the pain having to explain the stage's start position to every shooter that comes to the line? I don't mind a RO asking if I understand the course of fire, because it is a courteous thing to do, and shows he is willing to clarify any questions you may have. It doesn't take much to nod my head.

I think that at the club level it isn't a big deal if they use the technically correct words, but sometimes shooter just don't like to listen to the RO's and they just do things on sound. They hear a noise and they load their gun when not told to LAMR, and then get DQ'd and then whine about it.

It is the shooters job to pay attention to the RO and LISTEN to the range commands.

[Larry White]

I agree that a shooter should be ready when he gets to the line, but if the shooter has a question and the RO is not willing to answer it why bother to ask if the shooter understands the COF, just charge that puppy up and lets go. Being a CRO on a stage can be a long,tireing day in the south tx sun but the job discription is to make sure everone has a SAFE experience, a FAIR experience and a FUN experience.               Larry

[Loves2Shoot]

Agreed

[ErikW]

I'll frequently hear non-standard commands everywhere but the Nationals. Even there, I get an occassional "Do you have any questions?" before anything else. Some form of that is the most frequently heard non-standard command, followed by "Slide Forward." Some form of "You are free to handle your weapon" is also common, and I hate it because they use it instead of the the proper command. Most of the others are just filling between legitimate commands.

[Wakal]

I usually follow the lead of the guy who instructed me in the fine arts of RO'ing.  He likes to say "If you have read and understand the course description........load and make ready".

The first part is there, to his way of thinking, to ensure the whining of the Grandmasters (or Grandmaster whiners/B Shooters) who like to mess up a stage and then say "why, I didn't KNOW you were not supposed to shoot through the wall/kick down the door/shave the dog's butt and teach him to walk backwards..."

As long as it leads into the "LAMR" ( and as noted above, doesn't require a response as to not disrupt the more easily disrupted or folks lacking the "on/off" concentration switch)...and is consistant...is it bad?

Alex

[BDH]

My take is that you should never hear incorrect range commands at a major match. On top of that, you really shouldn't hear incorrect range commands at any level match. The issue is that the range commands are pretty darn straightforward, so why not learn the correct commands, and stick with them?

Just some of the problems caused by improper range commands are:

• the RO reinforces his or her own bad behavior, and assuming he/she moves up to work an Area or National event, takes those improper range commands along.
  
• the competitor who is used to improper commands at the club level then goes to shoot a Nationals level event, and runs into a problem because in addition to the stress of a big match (especially their first big match) he is hearing different (correct) range commands than he is used to.
  
• many of the International competitors only know a few words of English, and guess what..... they are the 'actual' range commands, not a modified version of them.
  

All that said, everyone is human, and occassionally a mistake will be made (especially at the end of a long hot day). Also, we have occassionally been a little short on experienced range staff at some of the matches, so that does not help. Of course at the club level, it is always difficult because the clubs are usually short of staff in general.

Anyway, I guess I got on my soap box here, so I'll just go back and answer Lynn's original post....

Yes, I have heard improper range commands at both Area and Nationals levels, but they are very rare. At one of the Nationals last year I had an RO who was a little rough on range commands, but for the most part I got him straightened out during the staff match, and he did fine during the actual match. Also, at one of the Area matches last year, I had an RO that was terrible on the range commands. I tried to work with him, but there were simply too many problems to overcome, and I finally had him either handle paper, or do stage repairs. I hated to pull him from running shooters, but it was the right thing to do.

One thing I found interesting in some of the responses in this thread, is that some competitors expect LAMR to be the first thing out of the RO's mouth, and others seem to expect some pre-range command banter!! I'll tell you this is difficult for the staff because I have personally been 'corrected' by an RM for saying anything to a competitor before LAMR (including things like 'Good morning' 'How ya doing today' etc). Then later, give a competitor LAMR, and having the competitor say 'hey, you did not ask me if I understood the course of fire!' Like most things, it's really tough to please everyone!!

[lynn jones]

most of the time the "club member" or non certified RO just picks up bad habits from lazy "real RO's" or from  club level matches.  

i think this is where have a USPSA RO class frequently in a USPSA sectoh is a good idea.

and yes, my club needs a class.

lynn jones

[Rufus The Bum]

There is appropriate behavior to be enforced at each level of competition.  At the club level, we are informal in that if we know the guy who is about to shoot and know his abilities, we'll say something like "Heat it up" or "What are you waiting for, Christmas?" But this doesn't apply for a shooter I don't know, I go through the whole "Do you understand the course of fire? If not, you may load and make ready" At an area or Nationals, I would expect an RO to follow the letter of the law to avoid any confusion about what's going on.  If a DQ were to occur, the competitor could say the RO wasn't using proper range commands.  Just me pennies worth.

[BDH]

Lynn, I agree. Of course, there is the issue of time and cost.

Rufus, I disagree. Our club uses proper range commands even if we have a GM on the line. Sure, we may occassionally joke around with stuff like 'stoke em up cowboy, make it lethal', but never on the line when we are getting ready to run someone. Remember, even though the competitor on the line may know what he is doing, there may be someone in his squad that doesn't know proper from improper range commands, that you could be influencing.

I strongly encourage the use of proper range commands at any level, and I can't think of a single advantage of not using them. Using improper range commands leads to situations like last years RGN where one of my RO's asked a competitor to face down range, so that he could then safely issue LAMR. The RO said 'face down range' and then took one last look downrange before issuing LAMR. The competitor heard face down range, spun around, pulled his gun and went for a mag. The RO yells 'stop', and issues the 'unload and show clear' command.

Okay, now we have a problem since LAMR was never issued, and the competitor says to the RO "why did you split the range command in half? The proper range command is 'face down range, load and make ready'." Unfortunately, I have yet to see any rulebook that shows 'face down range' as a range command, and the competitor couldn't seem to find it either. He commented to me that 'I guess I screwed up, but 'face down range, LAMR' is the command they always use at my club'. I see that as a great example of a bad situation that could have been avoided, if the local clubs had been using the correct range commands. Nuff said....

I think you can be friendly and still stick to the proper range commands. However, if someone can point out a reason not to use proper range commands, I would love to hear it........

PS. don't even get me started about having a competitor tell me that a sweep or and AD is not a match DQ, because at their club they only give warnings on the first sweep or first AD during their matches (that is, as long as it is 'a safe AD' which I assume means that no one was shot... and no, I am NOT making this up! These were comments I had spoken directly to me at Area or above matches).....

[Rich Bagoly]

"If you have read and understand the course description........load and make ready"

I only get that one when there is no written description.  Does anyone think about what they are saying?

About half the competitors don't remember the start position.  It's the least important part of most stages.  No need to make a big deal out of it.

[Rufus The Bum]

One of the benefits of shooting a club who's average attendance is about 10 people is that it's very informal.  I have seen people get swept and, I have been swept myself on several occasions.  Safety is first and foremost at our club matches and if you do sweep someone, accidental or not, we make sure it doesn't happen again and move on with the match, we don't call the RM (If we had one) Nor do we call John Amidon on the "Red-Phone" saying "We got swept by another competitor, send in the NROI police."  OUR biggest concern should be getting people to come to club matches and KEEPING them coming back.  Quite honestly, people aren't going to come back if they perceive a militant range official who's sole purpose is "the rules" We can be safe, have fun and keep people coming back without constantly throwing the rulebook in someones face.  I think that's the main reason people don't come back, they hate being constantly critiqued about what they should do and the proper way to interpret commands etc....I show up to have fun and shoot.  If you want to do it by the book, that's fine, but if you want to use your own unique way of saying "Load and Make Ready" Then that's fine as well.

[BDH]

Rufus,

Not trying to start a war here... we also worry about people coming back to our club matches. We try to be as friendly as possible, and accomodate shooters at all levels. We try to make sure everyone has fun, and we try to help people learn. I fully understand your point about wanting things to be 'informal'.

No one is trying to be range nazi, nor a 'militant range official'. Just remember, the rules are first and foremost about safety. Also, something else you may want to consider is that I know a few people who will not shoot at certain clubs that are too 'informal' because of the safety issues involved. So depending on just how 'informal' you guys are, you might find that you could have more shooters, if you stuck a little closer to the rules (I realize that you said you are safe, and this is complete speculation on my part).

My main points were a) the rules are the rules, and I believe that they apply at all levels, and not enforcing rules at the club level, occassionally causes problems for competitors at the big matches. Just so I am perfectly clear, when I work a match (club, Section, Area or Nationals), my goals are always the same..... to make sure that no one gets hurt.... to make sure the competition is fair for all.... and to try to make sure people have fun. However, I will not sacrifice the first two, for the fun factor as there is simply too much at stake.

[Rufus The Bum]

Brian, I agree with you 100 percent.  Rules are the rules, we have in fact, DQ'd people for commiting grossly unsafe acts, we are a very safe club and many of us shoot major matches etc...and have no problems interpreting the rules when we go because it's everyones responsibility to learn the rules, not rely on an RO to tell them what to do.  It really burns me when we have shooters who have been doing this a number of years who don't know the rulebook.  My reference to our club being very informal wasn't intended to be interpreted as "we disregard the rulebook" Rather we try to keep it fun, informal and just enjoy each others company WHILE following the rulebook.  DVC

[Rich Bagoly]

The Club Program Manual is packed with great information, but I have a problem with the section on RO'ing.

Under the heading "USE PROPER RANGE COMMANDS" page 54, it presents some of the commands improperly.

First comand?

"HAVE YOU READ AND UNDERSTOOD THE COURSE OF FIRE?"

Followed by;

"FACE DOWNRANGE, LOAD AND MAKE READY!"

Promoting improper range commands is causing trouble for USPSA members.

I am looking at the 4th ed, C2000.  Is there a newer version?

--------------------

I also sent this to Rob Boudrie, my AD.

[BDH]

The Club Program Manual is packed with great information, but I have a problem with the section on RO'ing.

Rich, I tagged Dave Thomas on this, and following is his response:

"This was brought to my attention recently. It is true that the portion of the CPM covering the range commands is not as clear as it should be. We intend to reprint and send the pages in question to the clubs."

Good catch!!

[Dowter]

I have some problems with the exact range commands. I agree that they should be followed strictly but I find myself in situations where I have great difficulty in doing so.

They're not very good in the moments preceeding the start of the stage. Let me give you an example.

It's a stage with a starting box.

The stage has just been shot by a previous shooter and the stage has been cleared and I'm ready to run another shooter through the stage.

I'm standing about a foot behind the shooters box. The next shooter steps up to about three feet behind the shooters box and gives me a "ok, I'm ready - waiting for your command"

According to the rules - the only words that should be coming out of my mouth are "Load and Make Ready". I am not going to give the shooter the LAMR command while he's not in the box and especially not while I'm downrange of him. What should I say or do in such a situation - according to the rule book?

This is what I would like the rules to be.

Please note - I am in no way deemphasizing the importance of following the rules strictly. I'm just brainstorming as to what I personally think what improvements could be made to the range commands. I agree that the rules and the range commands should be followed strictly. (I just find it difficult to do so in some situations.)

First command - "Before we begin - do you have any questions?"

The "Before we begin" part is to emphasize to the shooter the he shouldn't be reaching for his gun at that point.

Second command - "If you have no questions you may enter the start location"

Third command - "You may load and make ready"

I actually consider the "you may" part to be important because without it the shooter is given an order in which the shooter is to comply immediately. There may be a reason why the shooter does not wish to LAMR - just found that his gun is broke, he just saw somebody stumble down range, etc.

Please don't turn me into the orthodoxy police - I'm just brainstorming.

[Dowter]

I just thought of another situation. A new shooter gets into the start location when his time comes up but he is facing the RO who is standing uprange.

Now, I'm 99% certain that the shooter is going to face down rage before he LAMR if I give him the LAMR command. But I'm only 99% certain...

It is still the shooter's responsibility to do things safely but as an RO I want to make it easier for him to be safe. I'm there to bust him if he does a bad thing but I would much prefer to catch him before he does it.

[kaiserb]

Some of the ROs I have met on the local club level do this:

HAVEYOUREADANDUNDERSTOODTHECOURSEOFFIREthenFACEDOWNRANGEsitepictureLOADANMAKEREADY..(inser

1-10 seconds here)..BUZZZZZ

It may help the day go faster and the guys that have shot before know the routine, but it sure is distracting.

[Vince Pinto]

The competitor must not draw his gun unless and until instructed to do so by the RO, and the correct (and only) command is LAMR. If the competitor draws his gun prematurely, he gets a match DQ under Rule 10.3.3.

If the competitor is unsure whether the RO has said LAMR, all he has to do is ask. If he draws his gun and it turns out that the LAMR command was not given, see above.

Of course prior to issuing the LAMR command, the RO must ensure that the downrange area is clear of all personnel and that the competitor is facing downrange. It's also useful for the RO to quickly check the competitor has his eye and ear protection with him, before he issues the LAMR command.

And the competitor should not approach the line unless he understands the course of fire. If he's not sure, he can ask the RO for clarification at anytime prior to the start signal, but preferably as soon as he gets to the line.

I don't think our rulebook or SOP could be any simpler in this regard.

[Dowter]

I do a

"IfyouunderstandthecourseoffireyoumayLoadAndMakeReady"

I was actually teased because of how fast I get out the part before LAMR. I do that because I don't want the shooter to pull his gun out the moment I start talking and before the LAMR.