weak hand draws

[ErikW]

I was practicing some dry-fire weak-hand draws last night with my Open gun (!) and noticed a few things. I get all kinds of dot wobble when I first acquire the C-More dot from the draw-and-transfer. It's much smoother with a two-hand or strong-hand draw. What can I do to see the dot sooner and not have it wave all over the place?

I use a Voigt-taught weak-hand draw, grabbing the gun at the grip safety/mainspring housing junction, then putting my weak hand web under the beavertail during the transfer. This method means I'm not turning off the safety until I'm pretty much on-target, and I noticed that flipping the safety jerks the dot badly. I use some cant while shooting weak-hand.

[38supPat]

My transfer is much different from any other I've seen, but it allows me to get the safety off sooner (still downrange but at about the same place it would be for stronghand).

Check your wrist, make sure its at the same angle as your other hand would shooting stronghand. This is where I find most of my dot wobble. Try Brians shovel grip exercise but one hand only and check strength differences between both hands.

To find the dot sooner (or at all) weakhand can be tricky as you are not used to indexing on the left, do some table pickups or just play with it in front of your TV and get used to the index weakhand. As a visual cue, a friend taught me this, with the C-More look at the top of the dot module, place it at the bottom of the lens so that it is 'aimed' at the bottom of the curve of the lens, a six o'clock hold if you will. The dot should appear at the top of the lens.

Pat

[Kevin Kline]

Erik,

I don't cant the gun when shooting weak hand. I used to and it was hard to break, but Todd "beat me" until I stopped. I am glad he did because it has made my weak hand shooting much better. When I draw normally, the inside of my strong hand forearm slightly touches the side of the magwell. When I draw for weak hand shooting, the inside of my strong forearm touches the bottom of the magwell (where the magwell opening is). I grab the bottom half of the grip and then transfer to weak hand. I also don't get the thumb safety until in the weak hand and going to  target. I have to MAKE SURE MY WEAK HAND THUMB IS RIDING ON TOP OFF THE THUMB SAFETY AND APPLYING PRESSURE and the gun is straight upright. If I don't get my thumb on the safety and apply pressure, my groups go wildy, but grouping, to the right , BADLY.

Pat,

That is a good trick with the Cmore, thanks for the info, if I ever go back to Open. I also agree with you that you need to learn the index with the weak hand just like you are doing with freestyle and strong hand. Makes a difference. I had to make myself do it.

Kevin/IPSC Supercop

[Jerome Poiret]

For those of you trying to find the dot, there is a sight called OK sight (http://www.oktarget.cz) similar to the Cmore (but even lighter) that has a added open sight built in it.

check their website, as a small drawing is better than a long speech (Napoleon)

[Julien Boit]

When drawing weak hand, i grab the gun at the magwell and make the transfer to the weak hand.

Doing so allow me to have full access to the grip for placing the weak hand.

I do not cant the gun, I keep it straight.

julien :-)

[Nolan]

I've never been able to get a good consistent weak hand draw using the traditional methods.  I get much better results by coming down over the top of the gun and gripping the slide.  My thumb goes UNDER the safety.  I pull the gun straight up until it's clear of the holster, then start an almost normal presentation bringing the gun horizontal and gripping the gun with my weak hand.  I make sure I index the grip safety correctly into the web of my weak hand and line up on the thumb safety so that I get a consistent grip.  I pull my strong hand back almost to my chin and push the gun out as I'm aligning the sights.  I make a fist of my strong hand and hold it against my upper chest.  I can take the safety off as soon as I pull my strong hand clear of the gun (strong hand thumb was under the strong side safety.)  

You need fairly large hands for an Open gun using a

C-More.  If you have a tube style scope you can grab the scope.

[talon]

Can you please comment on the reasoning for not canting the gun with the weak hand ?  I notice many others advocate this technique.  I shoot so poorly either way that I can't decide whether to practice with or without cant.

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Quote: from Kevin on 8:38 pm on Aug. 3, 2001

Erik,

I don't cant the gun when shooting weak hand. I used to and it was hard to break, but Todd "beat me" until I stopped.

---

[Chriss Grube]

You don't cant the gun freestyle, so why would you cant it weak or strong hand. Consistency is the key. You want to get used to seeing the same thing everytime.

[Bill H]

"You want to get used to seeing the same thing everytime."

Oh it's like being married.

Seriously though, you can try cant or no cant and see what works best for you. You want the gun to recoil consistantly. I don't think I would crank the gun over too far.Holding the gun straight up seems a bit stronger grip wise.

Bill Hearne

[talon]

I see your logic, however, when I shoot strong handed with no cant I am using my dominant right eye.  When I shoot weak handed I'm still using my right eye so I'm not sure that is a one for one comparison or is it ?

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Quote: from Chriss Grube on 12:27 pm on Aug. 8, 2001

You don't cant the gun freestyle, so why would you cant it weak or strong hand. Consistency is the key. You want to get used to seeing the same thing everytime.

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[ErikW]

What talon said. I'm not sure canting toward the dominant eye is necessary with a two-eyes-open dot sight, but it's what feels right to me.

Why does Todd beat people for canting the gun weak hand?

[benos]

Over the years, I've went back and forth on the canting thing. At this point, the only reason to support canting, to me, would be shooting left-handed and right-eyed. Other than to just make it a little easier to see the sights, why do it? I think it might be in the realm of "that's how it was done/started years ago, so that's how we should still do it."

be

[Kevin Kline]

Well Erik, he doesn't actually "beat" people, he just doesn't recommend canting the gun when shooting and I was a particularly hard case to deal with because I just kept going back to it.

He said he doesn't recommend it because it makes your pattern and strings at an angle (whatever angle the gun is canted) and will sometimes throw one over the shoulder.

Kevin/IPSC Supercop

[ErikW]

I was dry-fire practicing weak hand draws (or rather strong hand draws with transfers to weak hand) and surprised that I had to keep setting the par time lower and lower. I eventually settled on 1.4 seconds for a comfortable weak hand draw to dry-fire on the A zone at 6 yards (or whatever my garage distance is).

I wouldn't have guessed it would be so close to my comfortable freestyle draw time, about 1.1.

I use the Voigt-taught method of drawing the gun with the strong hand web at about the junction of the grip safety and mainspring housing.

Oh yeah, this is with a Limited gun. I suppose it would be about a 2.4 if I used a foo-foo gun with a C-More.

[mcoliver]

Hi, Erik.  The very first time I heard about weak hand draws I really thought you had to be a contortionist to be able to draw from your strong-side or put your holster waaay back so you can reach it with your weakhand. DUH!  Not to sound even more like an idiot , do you know of other sites which discuss techniques with the weak hand draw or transfers from stronghand to weakhand?  Last time I had myself classified in IDPA I couldn't hit the targets with my weak hand!  Sooo, it will be practice weakhand only for the next couple of weeks. Thanks.

[Jake Di Vita]

I've been toying with a method lately at which instead of drawing with your strong hand actually on the grip, place your strong hand so your hand completely covers the trigger guard with your pinky resting on the front side of the grip and your thumb on the other side of the slide. From there you can draw and just put it into your weakhand with a perfect or near perfect grip in a pretty fast time.

Jake

[Ron Ankeny]

Erik:

The first classifier that I shot with my C'less sighted foo-foo gun was Speed-E-Standards. After about three seconds of hunting for the dot (after the transfer to weak hand) I just started blasting. :-)

[Steve Moneypenny]

i'm very interested in how others are doing this, anyone have any great explanations?

also, shooting weak hand to you keep the gun Strait up or canted inward.

[Duane Thomas]

Well, no great revelations here. I draw with a standard grip. As the gun is moving from right to left I bring the right thumb around so it's no longer curled around the grip but on the other side of the gun. This opens up the rear of the grip area. The shape of the right hand at this point makes a "slide" for the left hand thumb to slide into place, on top of the ambi thumb safety. One subtle touch I find makes the transition go much more smoothly is to "wipe" the strong hand straight down off the grip as the left hand slides into place. This gets the fingers of the right hand off the grip without catching them on the fingers of the left hand and pulling the gun toward the inside at the moment of transfer.

[38supPat]

I use a different draw than most for weak hand, I think I have posted it soewhere here before but I'll give a summary.

I draw the gun with my right hand 'almost' in a normal grip. Except I do not put the thumb under the grip safety. It rides on the grip panel right above theindex finger...similar to how your support hand grips the gun. The index finger wraps around the front of the trigger guard (as the gun clears the holster..'til then it points straight as usual, alongside the frame. This leaves the whole backstrap open for the weak hand. As the weak hand comes on the gun the weak thumb slides right in above the strong hand thumb (and over the safety) The right hand then pulls the grip into the weak hand as the pass is made. I use the index finger on the trigger guard to pivot the gun a bit as needed into the weak palm.

I have done sub 1 second draws (5 to 7 yds). On average it is about .1 - .2 seconds slower than a strong hand draw

[Flexmoney]

Yep.  Practical Pistol Competitions are games.  As such, they will never mirror real life 100%.  Gotta make some sacrafices in realism to keep the wheels turning.  

[Million Mom]

(Edited by Pat Harrison at 3:28 pm on Dec. 17, 2002)

[Jake Di Vita]

MM,

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to be blunt. For the last time, as you have been told by countless others, this is a COMPETITION forum. Every single one of your posts has been geared towards self-defense and to put it simply I don't really care about tactics at this point in my life, not to mention on a COMPETITION forum. Now, I don't know if you don't get it or just don't care, but either way you've been told enough times so by now it should sink in. There is good information in your posts once you cipher out all the weekend warrior stuff and I'd like to read more of it sans self-defense, tactics, or anything else that doesn't really relate to competitive shooting. Now if you really want to discuss tactics, there are plenty of other forums out there. I'd like for you to stay but just follow the rules outlined by BE. I don't think that is too much to ask.

[Shipster]

Jake!  One more time with feeling!!....  

Please!

[dirtypool40]

Weak Hand draws still, right?

I worked on this before the FL State match a couple of years ago. I was a new "B" Limited shooter heard they always threw in some strong / weak only.  Then I realized I had no idea how to draw and transfer.

So, I took it upon myself to learn.  I actually sweep the gun, grabbing it low (around the magwell and basepad). I know it's gamey, but to me, is fast and feels safe. Everything else feels like I am juggling.

Besides, with that draw there is a full gun for the weak hand to grab. I have an ambi, as most of you do, so it's no big deal.

Honest, I actually spent about two hours over two evenings practicing ONLY weak hand draw and transfer.  I have one of those sandpapery "SCOTT" grips on my gun, and sweeping it that many times rubbed the outside of my right thumb raw!

At that state match, with a two week old high cap (my first), there was a weak hand draw stage.  And while I "slowed down" a little for big match nerves and safety I still felt pretty ready.

He may have just been encouraging me but the RO, Jim Tice, told me I had the 2nd fastest weak hand draw of the match. Joe Kessler had a 1.33 (I saw it) and I had a 1.35.

As I got quicker, so did the weak hand draw.  About a year ago prepping for the FL state again, I was practicing with a buddy at OCSO range. Now bear in mind, I was well practiced and warmed up, but I did hit a real, witnessed .92 to a 10y popper.

I'd say on average to a full target @ 10y I can routinely hit in the teens (1.15ish).  In actuality it's still about as fast as my hands relaxed two handed draw.