Ad On The Draw?

[rtr]

What is the appropriate reaction if a competitor does the following.

Start position is with hands on Xs on a wall. On start signal shooter draws with the intent of engaging targets through port in wall right next to where his hands started (so he doesn't have to move his feet). Upon drawing competitor fires (appears to be accidental) one round into the wall while gun is at waist level (ie not looking through his sights). Because round went through wall RO did not see round impact either the berm or ground. Round did not impact a target.

So what would you do, and cite the rule.

[AlamoShooter]

Say it did'nt happen...or not this weekend

[eerw]

Say it did'nt happen...or not this weekend

unfortunately

[sfinney]

eerw, did you prep your CZ trigger to much?

The shooter did not have an "AD" as defined by 10.4 - it was (as far as we know) not within 3 meters, over a backstop, during a reload, clearing a malf, changing hands, or during movement (movement as defined by 8.5.1), at least according to the rules in 10.4

So maybe whats left is the ill-defined "unsafe gun handling":

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

Note the listed infractions in the rules don't mention shooting a prop by accident during the draw. But thats the rub, maybe an R.O. might decided this should be an infraction......

IF the R.O. strongly feels the competitor was UNSAFE, and not necessarily defined by the rules of an AD as defined by 10.4. - kind of a grey area.

I could argue as the shot evidently went in a safe direction (no proof or evidence to the contrary), and the competitor was not in movement or changing of shooting stance (it was a draw), or violating any of the specific conditions of an AD listed above, but only starting to engage a target during his draw (regardless of whether he had a sight picture yet or not), its not technically an AD and the competitor could be given some leeway. But I'm not an R.O., so someone correct me.

EDITED to add: It would depend on the situation also, as if the shooter went bang, followed by a surprised look on his face, a hesitation, etc, with a hole in the wall no where near the port..... compared to the gun extending, bang, a hole appears near the port followed by the second shot through the port, seamlessly...... I agree with the "out of control" statement below", and that should enter the equation.

Edited May 30, 2006 by sfinney

[ima45dv8]

If I were holding the clock, that event would have been immediately followed by, "Stop! Unload and show clear" etc. I would consider that shooter out of control and I would not let them continue. Unsafe gun handling is what I would write on their scoresheet.

If they were able to convince an arb committee to let them back in the match, I'd be disappointed. But the time elapsed would hopefully have been long enough for them to get their mind back in the game.

[bobert1]

If I were holding the clock, that event would have been immediately followed by, "Stop! Unload and show clear" etc. I would consider that shooter out of control and I would not let them continue. Unsafe gun handling is what I would write on their scoresheet.

If they were able to convince an arb committee to let them back in the match, I'd be disappointed. But the time elapsed would hopefully have been long enough for them to get their mind back in the game.

Agreed

[BDH]

Always hard to call unless witnessing the actual event, but based on the post, my call would be Match DQ based on the following rules...

10.5.10 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement in accordance with Section 8.5.

8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and safety should be engaged. The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction. "Movement" is defined as any of the actions below:

8.5.1.1 Taking more than one step in any direction

8.5.1.2 Changing shooting stance (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc).

Since the competitor was not 'actually aiming or shooting at targets' when the gun discharged, the only conclusion I could draw was that he/she had their finger on the trigger 'while changing shooting stances' (and if there were questions, that's what the ARB committee is for)...

[DMH]

DQ, unsafe gun handling. There is no room for "benefit of the doubt" when it comes to safety. We often forget what a round can do if it's released in the wrong direction. The shooter learns a lesson and hopefully everyone learns from it.

What if the next time he does the same thing with a start position facing uprange? We have to be responsible for every round we fire.

[davidball]

Upon drawing competitor fires (appears to be accidental) one round into the wall while gun is at waist level (ie not looking through his sights).

Clearly an AD, even though it does not fit "snuggly" into a specified rule. Match DQ.

[sfinney]

Always hard to call unless witnessing the actual event, but based on the post, my call would be Match DQ based on the following rules...

10.5.10 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement in accordance with Section 8.5.

8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and safety should be engaged. The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction. "Movement" is defined as any of the actions below:

8.5.1.1 Taking more than one step in any direction

8.5.1.2 Changing shooting stance (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc).

Since the competitor was not 'actually aiming or shooting at targets' when the gun discharged, the only conclusion I could draw was that he/she had their finger on the trigger 'while changing shooting stances' (and if there were questions, that's what the ARB committee is for)...

To be picky, just for arguments sake , to me, "changing shooting stances" does not include the draw... and as there was no step involved, 10.5.10 would not apply - but 10.5 "unsafe gun handling", as a general catch all, would.

[richardschennberg]

Outdoors - Miss. You should stop the shooter, but if the shot did not impact within three meters, he gets a reshoot. Perhaps you could shuffle him to the bottom of the shooting order. You can, and perhaps should, discuss safety. But please don't make up rules or DQ a shooter who has not committed a DQable offense. At best this fits "almost a DQ, but not quite."

Indoors - What kind of wall, and what are the local range rules?

If shooting the wall is unsafe, it is a DQ.

If shooting the wall is prohibited, decide in advance and in writing whether its a procedural (to discourage minor damage to the range) or a DQ (unsafe).

[ima45dv8]

Richard, I'm sorry if you think this is making up rules (!). It's not.

"10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:"

As ROs, we are many times called upon to exercise our judgement about the things we see. If I saw the event described above I would have no alternative than to issue a DQ based on 10.5. Unsafe gun handling doesn't get a free ride.

Edited May 30, 2006 by ima45dv8

[Vlad]

I wish some of the "real" rule experts chime in, because it is my understanding that this is pretty much NOT a DQ'ble offence even with 10.5. In fact, if I remember correctly, Troy used pretty much this exact scenario during the RO class for the portion where he tries to mess with all the class members heads. Unless my mind is failing, he pulled his gun went "bang" jumped and pretended to be very surprised and when the RO in training told him he was DQ'ed, he asked "What for?".

If I'm misremembering this then fine, but if I'm not that tells me that NROI doesnt believe that 10.5 applies to this very case.

It's not that I don't think that shooter MAY have been unsafe, but how do you write a rule that makes that shot a DQ'ble offence but doesn't send you home for taking a point shooting shot from a low grip at a target at muzzle burn distance?

[Precision40]

I think the fact that the shot didn't impact within 3 meters of the competitor is irrelevant. If the gun discharged while the gun was at waist level, went through a wall during a draw, it is a DQ, plain and simple.

8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and safety should be engaged. The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction. "Movement" is defined as any of the actions below:

8.5.1.1 Taking more than one step in any direction

8.5.1.2 Changing shooting stance (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc).

Another example of the shooter needing to doing the right thing by accepting the fact that he DQ'd.

[mactiger]

Ivan, you are correct, I did pretty much do that, but it was part of playing the devil's advocate. In that scenario, it's supposed to be a DQ. I just want the RO to justify DQing me.

In this instance, while the "movement" doesn't necessarily fall into the two items in the rule, I'd consider this a discharge while moving, simply because the competitor's finger was obviously on the trigger and he wasn't engaging targets. Movement can't be defined that closely if we are to consider safety paramount. An argument could be made that to get into position to shoot through the port, the competitor had to "move", and the examples given in the rule are just that, examples.

In this instance, I'd DQ the competitor under 8.5.1 and 10.5.10. If he didn't agree, he could arbitrate. I'd rather err on the side of safety. If, as others have mentioned, he gets back in, so be it.

The rules can't cover all possible circumstances, but I think they are clear enough here to justify a DQ.

Troy

Edited May 30, 2006 by mactiger

[sfinney]

I'm trying to learn here, this is a very interesting discussion so far...... thanks everyone for keeping this constructive as possible.

This is more a discussion of exploring the rules in my opinion, and what they actually say, rather than whether the shooter is big enough to do the right thing - by all means, if you feel like as a shooter you screwed up, then stop, unload show clear and get to taping.

Thanks for the clarification Troy, that makes sense.

Edited May 30, 2006 by sfinney

[jrguar]

Hey guys,

I have to call this unsafe gun handeling. My call would be to stop the shooter , have him unload & show clear then explain my call. Based on the description I would say this shooter was never in control.

Just my 2 cents worth...

Joe

[rtr]

Thanks for the discussion folks.

In the instance described I was the RO at this past weekends Colorado State Championship/Mile Hi Showdown. This was my first major match as an RO (also a competitor, there weren't standing ROs). I stopped the shooter and told him he had just DQed himself for an AD. The Rangemaster was summoned, asked myself and the RO on the clipboard what happened and called it a DQ, to my knowledge no arbitration was filed.

This was my first ever DQ in a match, I felt bad for the competitor as this happened on one of his first few stages of a two day match, he's from out of town and had come with his wife. But he was great about it and stayed with the squad for the rest of the match and helped out, his wife finished the match.

[Flexmoney]

We've had this question before...for those that might like to dig into the past discussion with the search function...

[davidball]

This was my first ever DQ in a match, I felt bad for the competitor as this happened on one of his first few stages of a two day match, he's from out of town and had come with his wife. But he was great about it and stayed with the squad for the rest of the match and helped out, his wife finished the match.

You done good, IMHO. Nobody likes a DQ - not the shooter, not the RO, not the shooter's friends, not the rest of the squad - especially at a major match involving a time and money sacrfice to be there. But it has to be done, for safety and the integrity of our sport. My approach is to be firm but compassionate. After the formal procedures I take the shooter aside, ask him/her if they are alright, let them know "these things happen" and no one got hurt, and just try to be a little encouraging.

I once had to DQ the son of the match director / section coordinator at a section championship. All took it in stride. The kid then hung around and help me run and re-set my stage the rest of the match. The kid was a great sport about it and acted with tremendous sportsmanship and maturity.

[bayoupirate]

rtr,

Did the stage come to a complete stop while waiting for the RM or did others shooters continute?

"STOP", "Unload and Show Clear, HD&H, Clear"

Then I explain to the shooter that I stopped them because the shot into the wall before they had control of the gun was unsafe gun handling and that they've been disquailified.

Then I'd say, "Tape 'em, Paint 'em, Reset em". (probably not necessary in this instance)

I of course would politely answer any questions the shooter might have at that time, but would not let it become a discussion that takes more than time it takes to reset the stage.

If the shooter was in disagreement with my call, I'd tell the shooter, "I'll call the Range Master to come and discuss the possibility of Arbitration with you."

I'd call for the RM and ask another RO to run the next shooter, or I'd run the next shooter while waiting.

I agree with DMH, Safety is paramount and there's no room for "benefit of the dobut".

I once clipped the edge of a wall that was used horizontally as a table. The bullet spattered and my shin and my boot still have the scar to show for it.

Edited May 30, 2006 by bayoupirate

[LPatterson]

bayoupirate,

It doesn't matter if the competitor disagrees or not, 10.3.2 says the Range Master MUST be notified as soon as possible. The RO should also check to see if they can determine where the bullet impacted to determine if the violation fits 10.4 or 10.5/8.5.1 & the etc. portion of 8.5.1.2.

[Bigbadaboom]

11.1.2 Appeals arising from a disqualification

for a safety infraction will only be accepted to determine whether

exceptional circumstances warrant reconsideration of the match

disqualification. However, the commission of the infraction as

described by the Range Official is not subject to challenge or

appeal.

Always remember that only the circumstances can be arbitrated. Not the R.O.'s ruling. For instance, The shooter could try saying that a butterfly flapping its wings in Africa caused him to pull the trigger prematurely therefore he shouldn't be D.Q.ed due to circumstances beyond his control.

[Nik Habicht]

11.1.2 Appeals arising from a disqualification

for a safety infraction will only be accepted to determine whether

exceptional circumstances warrant reconsideration of the match

disqualification. However, the commission of the infraction as

described by the Range Official is not subject to challenge or

appeal.

Always remember that only the circumstances can be arbitrated. Not the R.O.'s ruling. For instance, The shooter could try saying that a butterfly flapping its wings in Africa caused him to pull the trigger prematurely therefore he shouldn't be D.Q.ed due to circumstances beyond his control.

That's actually not entirely true ---- the RO's ruling can be arbitrated, if for instance he misread the rulebook. What 11.1.2 says in part, is that the R.O. version of events observed can't be challenged, i.e., no arguing "My gun never went off," or "No, I didn't break the 180...."

[bayoupirate]

bayoupirate,

It doesn't matter if the competitor disagrees or not, 10.3.2 says the Range Master MUST be notified as soon as possible. The RO should also check to see if they can determine where the bullet impacted to determine if the violation fits 10.4 or 10.5/8.5.1 & the etc. portion of 8.5.1.2.

You are absolutely correct.

I got out of sequence there. The response should be, "The Range Master is on the way."

Thanks for the heads up.