jkmccoy Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 (edited) The 2006 Texas State 3-Gun Championship is over. I'll try to get some results posted this week (I'm not real motivated to do so right now). There was vehement controversy/complaint regarding the manner in which the aggregate results were calculated. All results were calculated based on my best understanding of current USPSA rules and using the currently approved scoring program. The complaint was not based on reference to rule. Aggregate results for the 2005 TS3G were calculated in the same way (using EZWS). Although it describes some of the processes I have used to score 3-gun matches to appropriately reflect power factor according to USPSA rules, the "San Angelo Scoring Method" described in the current provisional Multi-Gun rules is NOT how I have scored previous Texas State 3-Gun matches and I do not agree with the way such results will be calculated. My real response to the complaint is in the "What I Hate" section. It doesn't belong here. Ciao, Kelly McCoy San Angelo, TX Edited May 22, 2006 by jkmccoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gl Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 Great match!! Thanks for letting us shoot with you. Guy Hawkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 After talking with Roger Myers, he said the Texas 3-gun could & should have been scored useing the " san anglo" scoreing system where only match points are used instead of %'s. Useing the % method is not conductive of who really wins or loses. Mr. McCoy did a fast & great job on the scoreing, but I wish he would have used the " san angelo" scoreing considering that's were we where & will be used at the 3-gun nat.'s this year. It is a great match & fred & all the hand's did another great job. My hat's off to them all & we'll see them next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmilk9 Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 Another fine argument for total times + penalties. Even though i didnt get to the match this year, it sounds like everyone had a great time. maybe next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_B Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 Another fine argument for total times + penalties. Even though i didnt get to the match this year, it sounds like everyone had a great time. maybe next year. The time + penalties is not a perfect scoring system either. I have "heard" that a person could be dropped from 2nd place to 12th place by a glitch in the scoring program. I would like to thank all of the staff and workers at the match. You did an outstanding job! Everyone was very professional and acted like they were glad we were there inspite of the terrible heat. PS. Next time someone drops a hint like "know your zero" make sure you "know your zero" for close range as well as for long range. Mine was right where I was holding not where I was looking!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Kelly, I wasn't there, but I want to say thanks anyway. You all are helping to cut the path...taking the bruises, so the rest of us can learn what works and what doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmut Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Thanks to all the helped/setup/worked/and most of all sweated for the 2006 TX St. 3-gun.......I brought up a new 3-gun shooter (but long time pistol shooter) and he was thrilled with the whole match......especially the RO's.......they where very nice and pleasant, not out to get you, but help you in anyway they could........and (of coarse), great stages! GOOD JOB!!!!! Garret Hawkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 The TX State 3 gun stages were great! I had fun but as I watched the scores go into the finals I realized something was wrong. There were many stages with multiple guns being used or as in one stage that was a combo stage, I just used one gun instead of two. I would think that the new "San Angelo" scoring would have kept this straight but apparently this scoring method was not used. The match had more rifle stages than any other firearm and was weighted for percentages rather than stage points. This was not a fair representation of the scores. Having been the match director at the 2003 TX3GUN I figured the score would be the San Angelo method with stage points totaled for placement in the match. All those rifle stages (5!) only added up to one of the 3 percentages and dropped a good rifle shooter to a lower position than the new scoring method would allow. The San Angelo crew always does a top notch job with any match they put on and they are the hardest working bunch of guys in this sport! It's too bad the results were tainted by using the older, obsolete, and unfair scoring system. Some good shooters were not given their due........ Mick A27257 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 The TX State 3 gun stages were great! I had fun but as I watched the scores go into the finals I realized something was wrong. There were many stages with multiple guns being used or as in one stage that was a combo stage, I just used one gun instead of two. I would think that the new "San Angelo" scoring would have kept this straight but apparently this scoring method was not used. The match had more rifle stages than any other firearm and was weighted for percentages rather than stage points. This was not a fair representation of the scores. Having been the match director at the 2003 TX3GUN I figured the score would be the San Angelo method with stage points totaled for placement in the match. All those rifle stages (5!) only added up to one of the 3 percentages and dropped a good rifle shooter to a lower position than the new scoring method would allow. The San Angelo crew always does a top notch job with any match they put on and they are the hardest working bunch of guys in this sport! It's too bad the results were tainted by using the older, obsolete, and unfair scoring system. Some good shooters were not given their due........ Mick A27257 After years of trying, I finally win the state championship, only to be denied because of a bad scoreing system, oh well, maybe next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 The TX State 3 gun stages were great! I had fun but as I watched the scores go into the finals I realized something was wrong. There were many stages with multiple guns being used or as in one stage that was a combo stage, I just used one gun instead of two. I would think that the new "San Angelo" scoring would have kept this straight but apparently this scoring method was not used. The match had more rifle stages than any other firearm and was weighted for percentages rather than stage points. This was not a fair representation of the scores. Having been the match director at the 2003 TX3GUN I figured the score would be the San Angelo method with stage points totaled for placement in the match. All those rifle stages (5!) only added up to one of the 3 percentages and dropped a good rifle shooter to a lower position than the new scoring method would allow. The San Angelo crew always does a top notch job with any match they put on and they are the hardest working bunch of guys in this sport! It's too bad the results were tainted by using the older, obsolete, and unfair scoring system. Some good shooters were not given their due........ Mick A27257 After years of trying, I finally win the state championship, only to be denied because of a bad scoreing system, oh well, maybe next year. Benny, we know how you did!! In any case you were still high Tactical Texan... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted May 26, 2006 Author Share Posted May 26, 2006 (edited) Results are posted: http://sanangelogunclub.org/action_pistol/...TS3Gresults.htm Kelly McCoy SAGC Edited May 26, 2006 by jkmccoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 Holy Tactical Shooters, Batman! More Tactical guys than Open and Limited combined. A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 Real men shoot irons! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 When I want to play with antique bottom-feeder shotguns, I Cowboy Up and shoot SASS. When I want to play with modern firearms, I shoot USPSA. If it ain't mag-fed, it ain't modern...or Tactical So, what was the story with Stage 4? Tons of folks with over a hundred points in penalties... Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 My understanding of San Angelo is that you don't use the tournament facilities (i.e., aggregate scoring) of ezwinscore at all. A multigun match is, instead, scored in ezws as a single pistol match, with competitors being registered as Open, Limited, or Tactical. (Caveat: you can't register someone in pistol as "tactical", so pick one of the unused other 4 divisions [L10, Prod, Rev, or SS] and use that.) As discussed in the multigun rules, handling multigun stages in terms of accounting for different PF's in a stage is a manual exercise, but there is no aggregate scoring or aggregate listing in such a match. 2005 GA 3-Gun Ch Example here. 2005 USPSA 3-Gun Nationals example here. Regardless, I'm sure it was a great match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liota Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 For everyone who is complaining about "San Angelo Scoring," please keep in mind that Dr. McCoy invented the scoring system. If a miscommunication needs to be addressed between Dr. McCoy and the rules committee, then they will take care of it. Take care, All. Keep in mind also, that I wouldn't really give two dammits how the match got scored as long as I got to shoot it. I didn't, but that's okay I'll be home soon. Cheers from the ROK, Liota Real men shoot irons! So, Matt, Sweetie, how much exactly were you cheating...I mean practicing out on that bare lot where your house now stands? Lunch is on me next time I'm visiting. Oh, I guess that will be in a couple of weeks. Congratulations! Take care, Liota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmut Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 (edited) YoboSaYo? Edited May 26, 2006 by Helmut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 but there is no aggregate scoring or aggregate listing in such a match. Yeah, Bill makes a good point, what's up with the aggregate thing? Any explanantions as to why extra accounting steps are in use here compared to the approved USPSA method, or are we just not hearing the full story yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 Liota, If you're going to be home in a few weeks, go shoot 3-Gun Nat's. I'll be off of the ROK in 40 days and will be spending every waking moment (outside of the gym) on the range getting ready for US3GN. I'm going to try and hit Osan this weekend for some shoppin'. I'll call before gettin' on the bus. Later, Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmut Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 (edited) So, what was the story with Stage 4? Tons of folks with over a hundred points in penalties...Alex It was those evil 50yrd rifle head shots with no-shoots all the way around the heads......EVIL Edited May 26, 2006 by Helmut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 So, what was the story with Stage 4? Tons of folks with over a hundred points in penalties... Alex It was those evil 50yrd rifle head shots with no-shoots all the way around the heads......EVIL I guess I was doing pretty good with only 20 points in penalties on that one. On the first headshot target I shot both hits did not hit the white at all, but broke the perf on the brown target, so I got the points for hitting the brown, and the penalties for the shoot through on the no-shoot behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpowe Posted May 26, 2006 Share Posted May 26, 2006 but there is no aggregate scoring or aggregate listing in such a match. Yeah, Bill makes a good point, what's up with the aggregate thing? Any explanantions as to why extra accounting steps are in use here compared to the approved USPSA method, or are we just not hearing the full story yet? When Mr. Wizard (Prof. Kelly) originated "San Angelo Scoring" He used the existing Three gun Tournament option, just manually adjusting penalties for minor rifle. This is the method we've always used for the TS3G. That said, I can see us setting the match up as a pistol match next time, especially if EZWinScore is kludged again so that it takes less manual score adjustment, or if as Prof Kelly has mentioned, we hire a sharp CS student to write a new 3Gun scoring program using public domain software... Bill So, what was the story with Stage 4? Tons of folks with over a hundred points in penalties... Alex It was those evil 50yrd rifle head shots with no-shoots all the way around the heads......EVIL I guess I was doing pretty good with only 20 points in penalties on that one. On the first headshot target I shot both hits did not hit the white at all, but broke the perf on the brown target, so I got the points for hitting the brown, and the penalties for the shoot through on the no-shoot behind it. I had one NS/Mike on the first shot, (caught my heartbeat wrong!) Prof Kelly was my RO, he said I took 16 seconds to get set and less than 10 seconds to fire the 10 shots... 5A, 4B, 1 NS/mike. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted May 27, 2006 Share Posted May 27, 2006 Real men shoot irons! So, Matt, Sweetie, how much exactly were you cheating...I mean practicing out on that bare lot where your house now stands? Lunch is on me next time I'm visiting. Oh, I guess that will be in a couple of weeks. Congratulations! Take care, Liota Liota, I had about 3 hours of prep for the match: 1. Went to local range to sight in the AR (thanks Benny) at 300 yards. (2 hrs) 2. Practiced with a pistol that made major and realized I shoot my Production gun better, so it was minor Limited for me. (30 mins) 3. Test fired the shotgun (thanks Benny again) and made sure the loads worked. No time to pattern it or check zero with slugs. (30 mins) That was it! Wouldn't you know that the only time I could ever make this match you and Alex weren't there? I'll take you up on lunch again! Larry's Pizza? Later, Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gl Posted May 27, 2006 Share Posted May 27, 2006 (edited) Real men shoot irons! So, Matt, Sweetie, how much exactly were you cheating...I mean practicing out on that bare lot where your house now stands? Lunch is on me next time I'm visiting. Oh, I guess that will be in a couple of weeks. Congratulations! Take care, Liota Liota, I had about 3 hours of prep for the match: 1. Went to local range to sight in the AR (thanks Benny) at 300 yards. (2 hrs) 2. Practiced with a pistol that made major and realized I shoot my Production gun better, so it was minor Limited for me. (30 mins) 3. Test fired the shotgun (thanks Benny again) and made sure the loads worked. No time to pattern it or check zero with slugs. (30 mins) That was it! Wouldn't you know that the only time I could ever make this match you and Alex weren't there? I'll take you up on lunch again! Larry's Pizza? Later, Matt Dude you rocked and shot great, congrats!!!! Guy Hawkins Again, thanks to everyone who put on the match. Without your hard work we would not have had the enjoyment at the match we all did. It is work, thanks!!!!!! Edited May 27, 2006 by gl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liota Posted May 27, 2006 Share Posted May 27, 2006 Liota,I had about 3 hours of prep for the match: 1. Went to local range to sight in the AR (thanks Benny) at 300 yards. (2 hrs) 2. Practiced with a pistol that made major and realized I shoot my Production gun better, so it was minor Limited for me. (30 mins) 3. Test fired the shotgun (thanks Benny again) and made sure the loads worked. No time to pattern it or check zero with slugs. (30 mins) That was it! Wouldn't you know that the only time I could ever make this match you and Alex weren't there? I'll take you up on lunch again! Larry's Pizza? Later, Matt Three hours is more than I normally have for that match. Benny is a sweetie, as usual. Larry's Pizza is fine. I think I even remember how to get there from my folks' house. Was it your turn to pay? I'm glad you did well at the match. Liota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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