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Best Long Range Caliber?


ewokUk

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I’ve been shooting different disciplines at up to 600 yards with my .223 and am now looking at getting a new gun for 1,000 yard shooting.

What would be the best calibre? A few friends suggest that .308/7.62 is really limited to 800 metres & 7.5 or 6.5 Swiss would be a much better calibre. Any ideas or experience with .308/7.62 at long range would be welcomed.

Thanks in advance

Mike

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.308 Win will get to 1k with 175gr SMK's, but not with 168gr. Might want to try first if you already have a .308.

The 6.5's have many excellent bullets, which is a good reason to look there if you decide to get a new caliber. Barrel life is not as good with some though, like the 6.5-284. Barrel life is important if you shoot a lot.

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It kind of depends on what kind of shooting you want to do... The people shooting Palma and F/TR certainly seem to make good use of the .308 in various forms. There are many cartridges out there w/ better ballistics; at some point it becomes a question of how much punishment you can take (some venues, such as High Power Rifle) don't allow the use of muzzle brakes. .338 Lapua Magnum w/ a 300gr SMK may be a thunderbolt in the wind, but I don't think I want to shoot a 20 round string plus sighters w/ no brake using one. Then again, I'm kind of a recoil pussy :P

The other trade off is barrel life... pretty much anythng that shoots flatter or uses less wind than a .308... is going to have shorter barrel life, consume as much or more powder, etc. etc. The one thing you can say about shooting a .308 at distance is that since it's so easy to find an accurate load for one, you can just relax and concentrate on learning to read the wind. Even at 600yds on a windy range, I've beaten a fellow w/ a full-custom .338LM using my Salvage 6mm BR... because I *knew* that even w/ the long pointy VLD's and all, I had to watch the wind. He tried mowing thru the wind... and paid for it.

In the end, all the calibers already mentioned are good choices... but I kind of like the .260 Rem aka 6.5-08. Easy enough to load for, shoots fairly well, moderate recoil, moderate barrel life, i.e. no major vices and flies a notch or two below the 6.5-284. Being over on the other side of the pond, perhaps a 6.5x55mm Swede might be easy to get set up for... right smack in between a .260 and a 6.5-284, factory Lapua brass... lots to like.

YMMV,

Monte

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You can shoot a .308 at 1000 yards or more. You need to use a heavier bullet than the normal 165 grain variety, because they slow down to subsonic at a little more than 800 yards. 175 grain Sierra Match King Boattail bullets work great.

There are calibers that are better for really long range. The biggest advantage of the .308 is that you can get lots of different kinds of ammo everywhere.

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308 at 1000 yards or more. You need to use a heavier bullet than the normal 165 grain variety,

Total BS. The operative parameter is the B.C.

But to answer the question---

No need to make this real complicated.

308 will make it to 1000 yards no problem, with a little care in bullet selection. I shoot the 155 Scenars to 1000 yards almost weekly.

Every long-range shooter should have a 308 bolt gun. I say this because the crux of shooting LR is wind estimation and similar basic skills. 308 enables much more practice due to its low ammunition cost (bought or reloaded) and long barrel life. Even if he has a magnum caliber, 308 will enable volume practice that the cost of the magnum caliber would not permit.

Calibers which are expensive, non-standard, or involve inordinate reloading effort should be avoided for a first "long range" rifle and only subsequently considered for relatively low-volume applications. Recommending an Ackley for a first long-range caliber is insane. Even a 300WM, which has decent factory LR match ammunition available, will be over 2x the cost of shooting 308, not counting the shortened barrel life. With Lapua brass available for 308, and many solid and tested reloading recipes, there is little that can go wrong, and little load development time needed.

Even going with a LR or magnum cartridge like 260, 7RM, or 338LM, the shooter still has to account for wind (as others have said). A exemplary 1000-yard cartridge like 7RM (shooting a 168gr VLD @ 2950), still has 60% of 308's wind drift at 1000 yards. So you can't ignore wind.. just get a little more margin of error.

For logistical reasons, most people will practice LR shooting out to 500 to 800 yards. 308 is certainly sufficient for these distances. After a year of shooting, if he feels like he needs a better LR caliber, get a second rifle in a caliber with FAR better ballistics, like some of the 6.5, 7mm, or 338 choices listed here. The 308 remains the high volume gun for bulk practice, and the new rifle is for low-volume practice beyond the capability of 308. This keeps costs (ammo and barrel) and time (reloading effort) under control.

If you need to hit things beyond 1500 yards, I can attest 338 Lapua is a good choice--

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Edited by Zak Smith
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308 at 1000 yards or more. You need to use a heavier bullet than the normal 165 grain variety,

Total BS. The operative parameter is the B.C.

B.C. affects the degree of deceleration of an object. It largely depends on weight of the bullet. The term means [mass] divided by [diameter squared] divided by [a constant based on the object's shape]. Increasing weight improves B.C. Improving B.C. reduces deceleration. Less deceleration means more velocity downrange. More velocity means less drop.

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B.C. affects the degree of deceleration of an object. It largely depends on weight of the bullet. The term means [mass] divided by [diameter squared] divided by [a constant based on the object's shape]. Increasing weight improves B.C. Improving B.C. reduces deceleration. Less deceleration means more velocity downrange. More velocity means less drop.

The thesis that "You need to use a heavier bullet than the normal 165 grain variety [to make it to 1000 yards]" is false.

Mass is not the operative parameter.

BC is an average ratio of Cds swept over the mach range of "this bullet" and the base G1 projectile (for G1 BCs which are the ones we see everywhere).

If all bullets had the same "shape" the thesis would be true within a given caliber. The bullet shapes are emphatically not the same, so it doesn't. This explains why a 155 Scenar (which is longer than a 175 SMK) can have a higher BC than a 168 SMK.

A ballistic calculator only needs an accurate BC, the MV, and environmental conditions to accurately model the trajectory.

-z

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There's more to B.C. than just weight. For example, the common 155gr SMK has a B.C. very close to the 168gr SMK, and both the 155gr Berger and 154gr Scenar have *higher* B.C.'s.

I'd say while weight is good, the B.C. has more to do w/ the shape. A blanket statement about .30 cal bullets under 165gr not being suitable is, as Zak said, B.S. The fellows I'm shooting w/ this weekend at the WA State Palma Championships would be devastated to know that their 155gr SMK's aren't suitable for 1k, I'm sure.

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Thanks Guys,

It looks as though .308 would be the best for me, at least for a year or so, although I won't be doing too much long range work so barrel life isn't that important.

Zak, I'm not sure if there is a 1500 yard range in the UK, I know Bisley tops out at about 1200 yards, so I don't think I'll need 338 Lapua :( , but thanks for all the advice.

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If your 223 is a bolt gun, or you don't mind single loading an AR, just try some of the heavier bullets like the Berger 75 or 80 or the 75 A-Max, if you have a twist to handle it. You can actually gat a load out of a 223 which will beat some 308 loadings in wind and elevation past 1000.

Because you can load 223s like that I don't feel as strongly that everyone should have a 308. However, I have 2 (one for precision and one for hunting).

Hopefully with in the next year I can add a 7mmWSM to my precision stable.

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If your 223 is a bolt gun, or you don't mind single loading an AR, just try some of the heavier bullets like the Berger 75 or 80 or the 75 A-Max, if you have a twist to handle it. You can actually gat a load out of a 223 which will beat some 308 loadings in wind and elevation past 1000.

Because you can load 223s like that I don't feel as strongly that everyone should have a 308. However, I have 2 (one for precision and one for hunting).

Hopefully with in the next year I can add a 7mmWSM to my precision stable.

This might sound like a stupid question, but why would I have to single load an AR? Is it because the round would be too long to fit the mag?

My rifle is an AR clone (see here) but it is a straight-pull bolt action (centre fire SLRs are illegal here :( ) with a 20'' 1:8 twist heavyweight barrel.

I'm currently using 70 grain matchpoints & getting good results - I haven't had it long enough to try the heavier bullets yet.

Edited by ewokUk
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There are a couple UK clubs that get out to 2000 I believe. The .338 Lapua was, by name, recently outlawed at either Bisley or Mattesey, I dont recall. You might wanna check into where you will be allowed to shoot it, before you drop some big money.

btw, a countryman of yours is makin a name for himself by training people to hit human sized targets at 2 miles. You might wanna ask around and see if a class from him is right for you. I know he uses only 300 gr. SMK's in a Ferguson barrel and Nightforce scopes.

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ewokUK

Yes in answer to your question, the good LR 223 bullets are too long to fit in an AR mag. I'm loading my 75AMax's to 2.357" or there about. The Berger 80's I'm going to load up today will be at about 2.410". These measurements will depend some what on what OAL it takes to get close or into your rifling. I'm using a Rem 700 with the HS Precision DBM system for my LR 223 and it has a max mag length of about 2.430. An AR mag is about 2.260.

With a 1-8 twist you should be able to shoot either of these bullets. Berger recommends a 1-8 for the 80gr VLD and Hornady say 1-9 or faster for the 75 A-Max. I'm not sure what the twist recommendation is for the new 80gr A-Max haven't tried any of them yet.

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I was not a big .308 fan, that was changed about 3 weeks ago, picked up a Rem 700 for my wife. We shot a long range match here in Idaho

I was shooting my Dpms .300 saum and she was shooting her .308, we both were shooting the 178 A-max across valleys and hills out to 1000

she had no problem. and it was a stock Rem Sendaro with a Leupold 4.5-14 Mark 4, first time she ever did anything like that,out of 10 teams we finished 5th, very proud of her and her gun

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Thanks again guys,

Kimberkid - Yup the .338 was banned by name at Bisley, because the majority of its loads were over the velocity and muzzel energy limits for the Bisley ranges. As you said, there are longer ranges in the UK, but I think they are all in the north of the country & Bisley is on my doorstep.

HighTechRedneck - Thanks for the info, I'll put those in the book to be tried, but at the moment I'm still having a few basic problems with my 70grain loads - see my post in the Beginners guns & reloading section. - What do you thing of the Lee Factory Crimp Die?

M.E.Anglin - Well that's another vote for a Remi 700 in .308. I was looking at an Armalon tuned one, but have heard that occasionally they won't strip the round from the mag - any experience of this?

Mike

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Yes in answer to your question, the good LR 223 bullets are too long to fit in an AR mag. I'm loading my 75AMax's to 2.357" or there about. The Berger 80's I'm going to load up today will be at about 2.410". These measurements will depend some what on what OAL it takes to get close or into your rifling. I'm using a Rem 700 with the HS Precision DBM system for my LR 223 and it has a max mag length of about 2.430. An AR mag is about 2.260.

Find some old Long Range Products magazines if you can. They allow loading AR15 ammo out to 2.46" OAL. High power guys covet them. Heard DPMS sells them since LRP went out of business in 2000. Got my four just before LRP closed and they work great with Berger and JLK VLD's.

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Find some old Long Range Products magazines if you can. They allow loading AR15 ammo out to 2.46" OAL. High power guys covet them. Heard DPMS sells them since LRP went out of business in 2000. Got my four just before LRP closed and they work great with Berger and JLK VLD's.

Most HP shooters I know (and I do shoot HP Service Rifle myself, just not very well <_< ) swear by one thing when it comes to mags... U.S. G.I. steel 20rders. Not the LRP mags. The few that I know that tried them, changed back. Just isn't worth it for the short line. Load 75's or 77's to mag length, and hot, or load 75/80/90's long and single load. If you're shooting that far, I'm guessing it ain't a 'rapid fire' event, so single loading should work just fine.

YMMV,

Monte

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  • 3 months later...

If you are looking into getting onto LR or Palma shooting, take a look at the forums at www.long-range.com/forums . You will find may people from the UK are on the forums. They might be able to give you a little more local advice. In terms of 308 being good for 1k, that is the only caliber allowed for palma and you are required to use a 155gr head. The difference between a palma rifle and a normal one is mainly the barrel length. On a palma rifle you are looking at a length of atleast 30 inches so that the muzzle velocity is atleast 2950 so that the round will be supersonic at 1k. BTW, my gun is also a 308. Hope this helps.

Adam

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