You Have Five Minutes To Look Over The Stage

[Chris Keen]

Pet Peeve: Please do not walk back up the main aisle when you are done with your walkthru unless absolutely necessary. If you can walk up the sides of the stage you can stay out of the way of everyone else trying to do a walkthru.

+2

[XRe]

I forget now where it happened but I heard that some folks got DQ'ed at a major match for taping shooters the day before they were supposed to shoot. Videos of empty stages should be ok but you might want to ask first.

For a while, at the Nationals, it was a DQ'able offense to try to gain a look at the stages before the match began. To the point where someone was apparently caught flying over the range, low enough to where the match officials could read their tail number. They were met at the local airport and DQ'ed on the spot.... (of course, that might be urban legend, but.... came from a reputable source....)....

Hey, Flyin40, I always try to make room for the southpaws... Doesn't hurt that I shoot w/ shred a lot, so I tend to remember that you guys exist...

[John Dunn]

The tongue in cheek part was banning the divisions, but I do take longer to plan my reloads with L-10 than Limited. Most of the time in Limited or Open, if you have to reload, it is only once. I just look for where I'll have the most room between arrays, and still have a spare round or two.

For L-10 you can often save a reload if you don't just reload between every array and take some targets out of the obvious order. To me ammo management is easy when I have 19+ rounds in the gun to start.

[Bigbadaboom]

Isn't part of the game quick analysis, quick decision and quick shot?

I've never read anything about this in the USPSA/IPSC rules or the IPSC constitution.

The game gets dull when advantage triumphs over skill.

This sport is all about gaining advantage and always has been. I gain an advantage over the person who doesn't train as much as I do. I gain an advantage over the person who doesn't have as reliable a firearm as I do. I gain an advantage over the person who doesn't take the class from Todd Jarrett that I take. I gain the advantage over the person who doesn't reload and has to shoot 179 P.F. factory ammo when I can reload my 169 P.F. custom loads. I gain an advantage over the person who only takes the 5 min. R.O.'s walk through when I show up the day prior to scope out the stages. etc....etc....etc.

In this sport advantage is a huge part of your skill.

I swear if a stage only consisted of a " Bill Drill", when the range clear was given 14 guys would be trying to crowd into the shooters box to "air gun" the stage.

Not where I shoot. The people that I shoot with are great and everyone allows the on deck shooter to prep the stage while scoring and resetting is taking place.

Maybe you should shoot with some different folks than the present group that you are hanging with if this stuff takes place.

I hate air gunners.

Then maybe you need to get into "Bullseye" or something else because you "Hate" 99.9% of the people in this sport.

I recall an individual on my squad at Area 2 that was so aggressive during the 5 minute walkthrough that he was elbowing and pushing people. Rather than resort to violence, we chose a more childish approach like throwing rocks at him while he was in the safe area, filling his shoes with dirt when he left them by my range bag and peeling out in the parking lot and spraying him with dirt while he had his suitcase open.

Time for "The Name Game" for GeneralChang!!!!!

I vote for "Mr. Dirty Shoes" or "Has Rocks, Will Throw"

Edited May 18, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[Skywalker]

Besides the 5 min. walkthrough, you can always use the scoring and patching time before being issued the LAMR command.

I admit that, in the few occasions I still haven't resolved my stage plan before going on deck, I have conducted a final walkthrough right before being called on deck, while the RO was scoring the previous competitor and pasters were resetting the stage.

I've never met an RO so rude to tell me "stop walking through and show up on deck!". A few of them have gently reminded me that if I was not ready to shoot the CoF, I could have flowed down the squadding list, though.

Edited May 18, 2006 by Skywalker

[AlamoShooter]

Walk - through?... are we suposed to get a walk through...- XRe and General Chang told me that just the good shooters were suposed to get a walk through. And that maybe next year I would get to they said somthing about about the chosen few?

[GeneralChang]

Uhh Jamie, please put the crack pipe down and step away from the keyboard...

Edited May 18, 2006 by GeneralChang

[AlamoShooter]

Uhh Jamie, please put the crack pipe down and step away from the keyboard...

Hey ! you used my real name! and arnt you suposed to be working?

[n2ipsc]

...Having a lefty in the squad really complicates things...

Only 'cause "righties" always forget them when they design and lay out stages

(Yes, I too am in my Right Mind...)

[davidball]

...Having a lefty in the squad really complicates things...

Only 'cause "righties" always forget them when they design and lay out stages

If we started considering lefties when designing stages, pretty soon we'll be expected to make them revolver friendly, too.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Hating airgunners never thought i'd see that here!!!! So do most IDPA shooters. But the bottom line is to do things to the best of your ability your body has to understand what it is supposed to do visually. verbal commands aren't enough.... I presumer you never walk through a course finding all the targets etc. just sit there until it's your turn?

I shot a local USPSA match a few weeks ago where we had an RO who did not believe in walk throughs... I was competing against Flexmoney here it really annoyed me at the time, and i took 5 minutes that I was allowed by the rule book.

When it comes down to it the "air gunning" really allows the best test of shooting ability and not who's lucky enough to find the targets.

I totally agree that showing up early is the best way to do it !!! but for those who can't look at your course description and get a basic plan (which direction to go where targets will be at, etc) this helps you go a little quicker at the walk through.

My general pattern is

1. read descriptions and stages long before the match. kind of get a little plan in my head

2. arrive on range and watch a shooter or squad to see them do it.

3. walk forward of all props and count my targets.

4. first through reload every time i'm out of rounds or know i'm going to be in the next position.

5. see if i can cut a load or be more ergonomic in my choice of positions.

6. walk through atleast twice. step off and see if i can picture it all in my head without looking.

7. go over it a couple more times to confirm i have it right.

8. paste and think about my stage until load and make ready!!

9.. load and make ready (close my eyes and review the stage in my head)

10. Shoot the stage as close to plan as possible.

[Barlin]

Hey I didn't mean to come off as a troll. My hating air gunners comment, I see now was harsh and far to general. My definition of "air gunner" is not a persons style of evaluating a stage by counting steps or shots. What I was talking about is a group of guys that after every shooter enter the stage like the opening act of swan lake walking in slow-motion with exaggerated movements. They interfere with the taping and target resets and the brass pickers. They are rude and always delay the next shooter in getting the range cleared. They add an hour of standing in the hot sun to the match. I know this is the RO job to keep the match moving and I would rather be shooting or in a post-match bull session. Also in all fairness these guys are not members of the club where I shoot, but I have seen them at several other venues and might have mistakenly assumed that this was a nation-wide activity.

My statement that 'the game gets dull when advantage triumphs over skill' is a commentary on switching from a goal oriented society to a success oriented society. You can now buy a high-tech oversize driver and quickly start hitting monster drives that once took years of practice by dedicated golfers to blend power and control. With enough money you can literally be carried to the summit of Mt. Everest and share your accomplishment with Sir Edmond Hillary. To be GM in our sport requires not only God given talent but also a super-human commitment and dedication to elevate ones skills. To be a GM is a high honor in our sport and that why becoming a GM is our shared goal. Which is why caution should be exercised when trying to make success more attainable for everyone.

If 5 minutes is not long enough to analyze a stage then it should be extended to a point where there is no need for competitors to go the day before a match or conduct low level air- recon in order to be competitive.

[bobert1]

If 5 minutes is not long enough to analyze a stage then it should be extended to a point where there is no need for competitors to go the day before a match or conduct low level air- recon in order to be competitive.

I hope you aren't serious about extending the 5 minutes. Tell me it isn't so.

[Chris Keen]

I'd be ok with that on a stage by stage basis. Some stages have ports or slots that only allow 1 shooter at a time to get a good look. If the stage is large enough, and you have a squad of 15 or 20 shooters ........ that means 5 minutes is never enough.

[folsoml]

I'd be ok with that on a stage by stage basis. Some stages have ports or slots that only allow 1 shooter at a time to get a good look. If the stage is large enough, and you have a squad of 15 or 20 shooters ........ that means 5 minutes is never enough.

+1. If you have a nice linear stage (a clear corridor to walk down and engage targets), 5 minutes might work. If you have to keep going back and forth between ports trying to see if you've shot each target enough times, and shooting box "A" is only about 10 square yards, and you've got about 15 people in your squad, your only option is to get there a day early.

Oh, yeah... I'm a lefty too.

It's like having a reverse commute in the same lane.

How about a left handed only squad?

[38superman]

+1. If you have a nice linear stage (a clear corridor to walk down and engage targets), 5 minutes might work. If you have to keep going back and forth between ports trying to see if you've shot each target enough times, and shooting box "A" is only about 10 square yards, and you've got about 15 people in your squad, your only option is to get there a day early.

You nailed it.

The situation you describe is exactly what prompted this thread.

Stage 5 "House of Mouse" at Area 6.

Tls

[BSeevers]

+3 to the bail out at the end.

This all is my pet peeve especially when squadded with a bunch of newbies to a big match. The worst ones usually stand in everybodys way and stare counting shots and steps and NEVER run it like their count.

On Mouse House and stages like it I usually announce "Hey guys we are in this together so let's only one person in the "box" at a time so we aren't tripping over each other. You can usually airgun a stage in less than 25 seconds. Works 99.99% of the time.

Now I really get miffed at running into a shooter when I am on deck. That type of shooter is a cheater and a poor sportsman.

[davidball]

+1. If you have a nice linear stage (a clear corridor to walk down and engage targets), 5 minutes might work. If you have to keep going back and forth between ports trying to see if you've shot each target enough times, and shooting box "A" is only about 10 square yards, and you've got about 15 people in your squad, your only option is to get there a day early.

You nailed it.

The situation you describe is exactly what prompted this thread.

Stage 5 "House of Mouse" at Area 6.

This stage made the walk through particularly difficult because it wasn't really right or left handed. In fact, it was kind of backwards because most right-handers moved from right to left across the stage in order to set themselves up to go prone. And, as Tony pointed out, you had to keep going back and forth to figure out where you were going to engage everything. This WAS a very difficult stage to assess in the 5 minute period.

[XRe]

I'll toss in my pet peeve about walk throughs - people walking the stage that aren't a part of your squad. I had this happen this past weekend a couple of different times. It happened shooting on Friday at the Double Tap match this year, with people who were shooting Sat/Sun walking stages while our squad was in the process of shooting!! It gets worse when you (politely) tell them to get off the stage, and they look at you, and then continue to do what they were doing.

BTW, +1 on keeping it flowing, and on being courteous to the on-deck guy, etc...

[Chris Keen]

Oh I had that happen to me at Area 6 on House of Mouse .......... the worst of all the stages for walkthroughs.

I was on deck, and some shooter from another squad was stealthing the stage right next to me. I happened to notice his squad was slowly starting to arrive, so I was 'hip' to what was going on, and I politely asked "Are you on this squad?" He boldly says ..... YES! Like I'm not going to know whos on my squad after a day and a half ? I'm like ..... "I dont think so pal. You need to step back right now." He just looked at me, continued to stealth the stage, then he walks up to the wall, unwraps a piece of bubblegum stapled to the wall as a decoration, and eats the damn thing right in front of me, eyeball-ing me the whole time, then meanders away to join his friends.

[XRe]

I think it should be legal (and mandated by the rules) to cut the asshat's achilles tendon at that point, Chris.... What you do at that point is go look at your next stage, then come back and ask the guy all sorts of questions while he's trying to walk the stage as the on-deck guy, and LAMR...

[ima45dv8]

Dave/Chris -- A pet peeve of mine, too. When I RO a stage at a major match I watch for this. I chase them off the stage in a heartbeat.

I haven't had anyone try to argue the point with me and don't really expect to. If it ever *does* happen, that bad decision will likely earn the person a fast dose of 10.6.1!

Edited May 22, 2006 by ima45dv8

[Crusher]

He just looked at me, continued to stealth the stage, then he walks up to the wall, unwraps a piece of bubblegum stapled to the wall as a decoration, and eats the damn thing right in front of me, eyeball-ing me the whole time, then meanders away to join his friends.

Just go and "relieve" yourself in his shooting bag and eyeball him (waving works well too) while you are "draining". Chances are he would be to "caught up" in his "match mindset" to notice. hehehehe

[BritinUSA]

This is a good discussion thread; Most of the replies so far have focused on the shooter but I think that the RO can make or break a stage walk-through process.

Five minutes is enough time for a stage as long as it is handled correctly by the range staff. For example:

After the stage briefing the RO reads out the shooting order and the shooters can then line up in this order to walk-through. After 5 minutes the RO throws everyone off the stage, then allows the first shooter 1 full minute walk-through by him/herself.

After that shooter has shot the stage then the on-deck shooter has the length of time to patch the targets to have their walk-through. No-one else should be allowed to walk-through except the on-deck shooter. The RO and SCORER will have their hands full doing the scoring so perhaps another member of the squad can keep anyone else (especially those from another squad from interfering.

In theory it should work

[MasterLefty]

Having a lefty in the squad really complicates things.

Hey, I resemble that remark.

On a stage that have a definite flow difference, how about 4 minutes for the RH and 1 minute for the lefty's. (tongue planted in cheek)

Kenny (I often fell like a salmon swimming upstream)

Edited May 23, 2006 by MasterLefty