Browning Hp "fast Action C&s" Legal For Production?

[Radical Precision Designs]

Somebody recently asked me if the "factory variant" of the Browning High Power in 9mm with the original/factory Cylinder & Slide "Fast Safe Action" hammer assembly is considered legal for Production. The assertion is that after loading a round, and futher pushing the hammer down, the first shot will start with the "hammer down". When the safety is disengaged, then the hammer pops back before falling forward after trigger pull. Not quite a true D/A by a long shot. But the hammer is down when the gun is holstered prior to the draw, "a-la D/A". I understand that more than enough of these pistols have been released by the manufacturer. But ???????????? I do not know the answer!!!!!!

[Vlad]

US D9:

17. Only handguns approved and listed on the USPSA website may be used in Production Division.

18. Single-action-only handguns are prohibited.

Both of two rules would be broken by that HP. It wouldn't be on the list, and it is SA only, no matter what its "safe" condition looks like.

[Radical Precision Designs]

While my question regarding the Browning HP was a little bit muddled, as to interpretation of what constituted a D/A "first shot" as per the prevailing rules for Production, it was not intended to become a subject to initiate a 'debate' pertaining to rules "likes or dislikes". I really should have looked in the Production 'bylaws' instead of casually asking here. I guess I really feel at home here, among my fellow shooters. Oh, well, "lazy" me.

The rules are clear enough, and were made for a reason, or several reasons, and as such were not meant to please everyone, but to apply to all. Any suggestion that may be forth coming, I'm sure John Amidon (and the Board) would like to hear for consideration to the benefit of all.

So long as we are on the subject, and offered the opportunity to ponder upon it... without becoming a harsh critic or one sided poster... the question really becomes what is considered a Production handgun, other than a caliber smaller than .40S&W, or lower PF. Or how it would tip the balance by having the first shot on D/A while some handguns continue subsequent shots in D/A and others revert to S/A for the remainder. All valid questions. But to reach a "happy medium" the line had to be drawn somewhere in favor of newer design handgun that fill the shelves regardless of the bullet diameter used. The consensus seems to be that a venue was needed where the 1911 S/A only style would be kept out, after all it already dominates in Limited, Open, Limited 10 and now (of course) Single-Stack. There has to be "space" made up for other handguns, to be fair, for sure. The Browning HP, while it is a 'J.M. Browning' design it is "not" a 1911, nor is it as innately strong. And, (IMHO) better left in its original 9mm Luger. While it is a great design (and first true double stack mag venue) it has become an "orphan" in IPSC/USPSA in spite of it, by having to compete against its sibling the 1911. So sad. Yes, I know that there was a 'variant' of the HP that was made in D/A first shot. I believe it is not currently being made, while there may be a few of them around...

Of course, like a few others, including "my friend" who has the (factory) Browning HP Fast/Safe Action, but shoots (usually) a different division, sometimes we would like to do some shooting in a different division for fun and to unwind, shooting cheap inexpensive factory 9mm ammo. The first thought that comes to ones mind is to see what we "already" have in our 'collection', rather than to see which gun "is in the list" of approved factory/Production, and then head up to the store to buy the newest and latest gizmo. Reminds me a lot of other non-IPSC shooting disciplines.

But, I am sure that the powers that be are working on a solution to this...

Maybe they can come up with a Division where I can shoot my 'broomhandle" Mauser, or the new FN 5n7 ???? ...somehow, I don't think so...

Edited: Maybe this thread really belongs in the "Humor" forums.

Edited May 15, 2006 by Radical Precision Designs

[Flexmoney]

While my question regarding the Browning HP was a little bit muddled, as to interpretation of what constituted a D/A "first shot" as per the prevailing rules for Production, it was not intended to become a subject to initiate a 'debate' pertaining to rules "likes or dislikes". I really should have looked in the Production 'bylaws' instead of casually asking here. I guess I really feel at home here, among my fellow shooters. Oh, well, "lazy" me.

It's a good question. And, if everybody looked up the rules first...we wouldn't have a lot to talk about.

I would like to hear more about any experiences with the C&S Safe Action (or Fast Action, or whatever it's called).

If you have any thoughts to share on it, I'd appreciate hearing them (likely a good thread for the gunsmithing on stock guns section).

[Radical Precision Designs]

While my question regarding the Browning HP was a little bit muddled, as to interpretation of what constituted a D/A "first shot" as per the prevailing rules for Production, it was not intended to become a subject to initiate a 'debate' pertaining to rules "likes or dislikes". I really should have looked in the Production 'bylaws' instead of casually asking here. I guess I really feel at home here, among my fellow shooters. Oh, well, "lazy" me.

It's a good question. And, if everybody looked up the rules first...we wouldn't have a lot to talk about.

I would like to hear more about any experiences with the C&S Safe Action (or Fast Action, or whatever it's called).

If you have any thoughts to share on it, I'd appreciate hearing them (likely a good thread for the gunsmithing on stock guns section).

Note: Present thread "drift"...

I do not personally own one of these Browning HP/C&S set-ups, although I discussed the design at lenght a couple of years back at the Orlando, Fla. Shot Show with its designer/progenitor. Very ingenious indeed, and very useful. I have since installed a couple of them and spent some time at the range shooting some.

It does give you a sense of wonderment when you "literally" push the hammer forward/down after loading/coking with the first round, and see the thumb safety pop-up like magic. After which you just holster your gun with the hammer down and the safety on. When it's time to shoot, you just draw and aim, release the safty, at which time just like magic the hammer pops back into ready for the first shot. And, YES, the firt shot proceeds as "single action". But enough of a delay is created to negate any real speed advantage. Thusly my friend suggested it could be legal for Production. After all it wouldn't be the only 'disguised' S/A handgun in Production, as exemplified by the S. Arm. XD models, or most of the Cz/Tz's etc. after the first shot.

Edited May 16, 2006 by Radical Precision Designs

[Bob Hostetter]

I have built a couple of guns using the Fast Action system, and in the past have shot one so equipted on a semi-regular basis. While from an engineering point of view they are interesting, they are mostly a solution looking for a problem.

The orginial idea was to create a modification for those people who were uncomfortable carrying a 1911 with the hammer cocked. The main complaint being that if the safety was accidentially bumped off you would be carrying a cocked and unlocked pistol. The way the "Fast Action" system is designed if you accidentially bump the safety off (the orginial complaint) you are still carrying a cocked and unlocked 1911. The only improvement(?) was as long as the thumb safety was engaged the pistol didn't 'look' like it was cocked which was thought to be a PR problem with some LE department's. However, in spite of direct marketing to LE agencies, I am not aware of any departments which switched to a 1911 pistol based on the visual advantages of the "Fast Action" system.

Regarding use in USPSA Production or IDPA SSP, since all shots fired are still single action I don't think you could get either sanctioning group to approve it. Besides, the hammer looks a little goofy (kinda like an old school Boland), so your cool factor would take a hit...............