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Editing-own-post Time Frame

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I thought I'd put this up here before someone else does... ;)

Posts can no longer be edited after 2 days (from the post). This should give you plenty of time to re-think/state or edit typos.

I know this is probably not going to be a popular change. ;)

I made this change for one reason. We've had a couple instances of members coming back in and deleting the content from all their posts, months or even years after posting initially. That can really make a thread (and the forum) look like crap, especially if the "editor" started the thread.

It also adds a certain degree of responsibility to your post. Which is probably not a bad thing, in the end.

If I was smart, I'd lock this thread now... :D

Thank you,

benos

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If I was smart, I'd lock this thread now... :D

:lol:

Sounds like a positive change....

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Brian,

I think we hit a snag.

I jsut got a message from a member that they can't edit their post(s) in the classifieds...which is something we tend to support/suggest they do.

Can we change that for the Classified section?

"I need to edit or mark sold some posts I have in the classifieds, and I don't have an edit button."

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Brian,

I think we hit a snag.

I jsut got a message from a member that they can't edit their post(s) in the classifieds...which is something we tend to support/suggest they do.

Can we change that for the Classified section?

"I need to edit or mark sold some posts I have in the classifieds, and I don't have an edit button."

Kyle,

Ask him if he can edit the post's title (only). In the ACP, it looks as though the Classified's member group should be able to edit their post's Title/Description, even if they cannot edit the post's content. Based on that info, I'll either sumbit a ticket or figure out something else.

be

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Brian,

I think we hit a snag.

I jsut got a message from a member that they can't edit their post(s) in the classifieds...which is something we tend to support/suggest they do.

Can we change that for the Classified section?

"I need to edit or mark sold some posts I have in the classifieds, and I don't have an edit button."

I can't edit any part of my threads in the Classified section older than 2 days. I would like to mark things sold without bumping the topic (got into trouble on AR15.com for that :wacko: ).

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Looking through the Admin controls, I am showing that members of the Group: Classified ought to be able to edit the topic titles and descriptions.

I know that is not the same as editing the thread itself... (which is a problem for those with multiple listings in one thread, that have some items sell and other still available)

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Looking through the Admin controls, I am showing that members of the Group: Classified ought to be able to edit the topic titles and descriptions.

I know that is not the same as editing the thread itself... (which is a problem for those with multiple listings in one thread, that have some items sell and other still available)

I don't have an edit button at all for those threads in the classified. I do for the post in this thread (bet its gone in 2 days though).

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I just ran into the same problem.

I have posted a thread in the "Recommended Resources" forum, where I regularly update the shooting ranges databases for N. and S. America, and Europe.

I am no longer able to edit the original post to add new ranges, or deleting old attachments as well; all I can do is to add a new post with new files, but can't delete old ones. :(

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Does this mean the moderators can't edit them after 2 days either?

I see serious ethical problems if moderators can edit posts which the original poster cannot edit or delete, or if moderators can edit posts without notifying the poster 100% of the time and allowing that poster the option of editing or removing the post (regardless of the 2-day timer).

Perhaps the question "Why would someone want to remove all their posts from BE?" should be considered.

ETA-

Furthermore, the poster who holds the copyright of the post (or report etc) can revoke that right to BE at any time. (Note that the new-user registration acknowledges the copyright may be held by the poster.)

Edited by Zak Smith

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If you are not man/woman enough to stand by your posts, perhaps you should not be posting at all...

We are all going to post things from time to time that we want to edit, but as I approach 7k in post totals, never have I needed or wanted to edit my posts after a 48 hour time window has past...

Think about what you want to say, then post it and then either bask in the glory or take your lumps... :P

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I assume you were not replying to me since your post does not address any of the points in mine.

ETFspelling

Edited by Zak Smith

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If I was smart, I'd lock this thread now... :D

Thank you,

benos

+1

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Does this mean the moderators can't edit them after 2 days either?

I see serious ethical problems if moderators can edit posts which the original poster cannot edit or delete, or if moderators can edit posts without notifying the poster 100% of the time and allowing that poster the option of editing or removing the post (regardless of the 2-day timer).

Perhaps the question "Why would someone want to remove all their posts from BE?" should be considered.

ETA-

Furthermore, the poster who holds the copyright of the post (or report etc) can revoke that right to BE at any time. (Note that the new-user registration acknowledges the copyright may be held by the poster.)

Zak,

I haven't run through the normal registration process in some time... but this has been the registration terms and rules for quite some time now:

Forum Terms & Rules

Please take a moment to review the rules detailed below. If you agree with them and wish to proceed with the registration, simply click the "Register" button below. To cancel this registration, click the “Back” button on your browser.

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Posts express the views of the authors, not necessarily the views of Brian’s Forums. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to PM or email a Moderator.

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Please Note:

BrianEnos.com's Moderators reserve the right to edit or remove posts or threads at any time and for any reason, without notification. Although, in most all cases, you will be notified if your post or thread was edited or removed.

Please review The Forum Guidelines before posting.

Thank you, and welcome to Brian's Forums!

Brian Enos

Although the terms state that mods can do anything they want to any post at any time, of course that would not be ethical, so it doesn't happen, hardly ever. If it ever does, I can assure you it was an oversight.

If by this:

(Note that the new-user registration acknowledges the copyright may be held by the poster.)

You are referring to (from the registration terms):

You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by Brian’s Forums.

... That is not what I meant or intended to imply with that sentence. That sentence means that you cannot post copyrighted material unless you own the copyright. It does not mean that whatever you post is copyrighted/owned by you. It does mean that whatever you post is owned by Brian's Forums. But I'm sure I'll need to consult my team of lawyers to get the wording right on that one. ;)

What it boils down to is that the Moderators can edit posts/threads any time they need to. That's why they're Moderators. I trust all of them to do a good job. Which is why I picked each one of them. And overall, I feel they do a fantastic job. And without them, as I've said many times , about 80% of the forums - as they now exist - would be gone.

Perhaps the question "Why would someone want to remove all their posts from BE?" should be considered.
If you are not man/woman enough to stand by your posts, perhaps you should not be posting at all...

We are all going to post things from time to time that we want to edit, but as I approach 7k in post totals, never have I needed or wanted to edit my posts after a 48 hour time window has past...

Think about what you want to say, then post it and then either bask in the glory or take your lumps... :P

Exactly. Over the years, I've made a post or two or three I've deeply regretted later. But I've left every word there.

A few years ago, a certain forum member started some great threads and made quite a few highly regarded posts. Then, one day, all the content from his posts was gone. Not only did that ruin some great threads, but it eliminated the chance of benefitting future forum members as well. I learned later why he deleted his posts. But personally, I didn't care why and I still don't. In my opinion it was bs to yank all the posts. I've put a lot of work into this forum, and if we can't all stick by our words, then we might as well flush the whole thing down the toilet.

be

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You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by Brian’s Forums.
It does not mean that whatever you post is copyrighted/owned by you. It does mean that whatever you post is owned by Brian's Forums.

The user agreement says nothing of the sort.

Specifically, it does not say the poster has transfered any rights at all!

What I post is copyrighted automatically and owned by me, provided it is an "original work of authorship."

See http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html if you are not clear.

The analog is placing a hand-bill with original artwork on a bulletin board at a coffee shop (privately owned) or in a public square (publicly owned). In either case, the author of that artwork has not ceded any rights to any other party.

What it boils down to is that the Moderators can edit posts/threads any time they need to.

The ethical problem I refer to is that the moderator can significantly change the meaning of the user's post, either without his knowledge, or after the 2-day period. This is deception regarding what he has written and in some cases changes the perception of his character (for the worse, even).

At the least, the poster should have a chance to implement the requested changes himself, OR review the change. I know for a fact that moderators have changed posts without notifying the posters-- I have seen it happen.

If you are not man/woman enough to stand by your posts, perhaps you should not be posting at all..
In my opinion it was bs to yank all the posts. I've put a lot of work into this forum, and if we can't all stick by our words, then we might as well flush the whole thing down the toilet.

Forums that have value and content, do so because of the posters.

Characterizing the people who would go and delete all their posts as, roughly, "not having the balls to stand by what they've written" (paraphrased from the above two quotes) pretty much ignores all issues raised in the "This Forum Has Gotten Out Of Hand" thread.

Where did that thread go off to anyway?

If you play fast and loose with words people have written (by editing them) and have a cavalier towards their contributions (" I learned later why he deleted his posts. But personally, I didn't care why and I still don't. In my opinion it was bs to yank all the posts"), you can expect them to be retracted from your use. The ideas and words are his, not yours.

ETF typo

Edited by Zak Smith

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I think we need a moment to think this over. Nobody is trying to be unethical (the thought never even occurred to me). And, the legal talk seems waaaay too deep.

The idea here, was that we would have a thread a few pages long, then somebody, who was very active on the thread, would come along and delete all their posts. That left the thread(s) mostly unreadable.

I am on other forums that have a time limit on how long editing can be done. I'd never have guessed it would be considered a legal or ethical issue. My "con" against restricting the editing feature would be that which has been mentioned...the lack of ability in the classified section and in updating an ongoing list. (I am always coming back to threads and fixing my typos and such...usually a day or so later than the original post.)

And, as far as I can tell, the talk of a moderator editing somebody's words...well, that is a different issue. (send me a PM if there is something specific in mind there)

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I think we need a moment to think this over. Nobody is trying to be unethical (the thought never even occurred to me).

Me neither. (The thought never occurring part.)

Zak,

The ethical problem I refer to is that the moderator can significantly change the meaning of the user's post, either without his knowledge, or after the 2-day period.

I am confident in every moderator's ability to moderate ethically. I have either personally selected or endorsed every moderator nominee by observing their posting integrity over thousands of posts.

I did not intend for this thread to turn into a "this forum has gotten out of hand" discussion. Nor do I care to see it turned into an attack on the moderator's integrity.

Whoever is not satisfied with how the forum is run is free to stop posting.

be

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In post #9, I put forth that if a moderator can edit a post at any time, but the poster cannot fix up changes, there is an in principle ethical problem. It may be the case that it will never happen. I argue that because the poster in essence owns the post (per non-refuted points), he ought to retain that ability to edit his posts.

Do not confuse such an objection with an attack on any moderator's integrity.

In a business, would "I am confident my employess act ethically 100% of the time" be considered due diligence?

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After being around this forum for awhile I think those who are extremely possessive of their posts or are worried about unethical conduct by the moderators should feel free to develop their own forum where they may dictate the rules as they see fit.

As it stands there is not another board I am aware of that has the maturity and quality of content and membership of BE.com. In that light I think Brian (and the mods) has a well proven track record of managing the board appropriately.

As to proving due diligence of moderators and managers where a free internet forum is concerned??? I think that is exponentially blown out of proportion.

Edited by smokshwn

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As to proving due diligence of moderators and managers where a free internet forum is concerned??? I think that is exponentially blown out of proportion.

It was a rhetorical question to demonstrate the point that having mechanisms and checks and balances in place to reduce the chances of it occuring is more robust than just asserting that one's employees act correctly, ethically, and with equity 100% of the time (which cannot be true).

The former is how businesses actually do reduce their liability for their agents' potential wrongdoing; the latter ignores basic facts of human nature-- that they are subjective, unpredictable, and prone to error.

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Holy cow...the domain is privately, not publicly owned. Who'da thunk it?!

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Eric,

It was never under dispute that the forum is privately owned. I have offered coherent arguments why: posters have copyright to their posts (and thus all I.P. posted here is not subsumed by BrianEnos.com), and posters ought to remain able to edit their posts.

The moderators can do whatever they want because as you say the forum is privately owned, however, this is limited at: republishing, and changing what has been posted to the effect that it misrepresents the poster (unethical).

I am dismayed there has been little discussion about these relevant points, but instead trite responses to the effect of: Love it or leave it, I'll do what I want with your posts, If you're not man/woman enough to ....

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You know what I do Zak? I have my own website. If I have something that I feel is so valuable that I have to protect it under copyright, I post it there. Not here. If I had something that I thought was REALLY valuable, I would not put on the internet, but put in a book and hope that people would give me money in exchange. Kinda like this one feller around here did a while back... Oh yeah, and there was that Anderson cat. And this crazy eurotrash guy with some whacked out ideas like practicing at distances farther than twelve yards. I have no clue what that loser is smoking...

The whole idea of this place was to create a venue where people could share what they know about shooting and others could come learn to shoot for free. The idea being that the rising tide would float all boats...which is exactly what happened. Imagine that. Post questions or information that serves that end and there will be virtually no chance that any editing of your words will take place.

When I was a moderator, did posts get redacted/deleted? You bet your ass they did. Did I agree with every moderating decision? Nope. Did everyone agree with what I did 100% of the time? Nope. Did I agree with Brian and Flex's decisions 100% of the time? Nope. But those were all *administrative* and *vision* issues. Brian has a vision. Understanding Brian's vision, then administering this forum to realize that vision is a damned sight different than dishonesty or dis-ingenuity.

Which bring us to: Did I ever see/hear about anyone ever going into a post and deliberately altering it's meaning? HELL NO! That's a pretty extraordinary claim, and I'd have some pretty extraordinary proof in hand before I bandied *that* little humdinger around. Redacting people's words is serious stuff and I can tell you for a fact that the mods take great pains to do that portion of their job just about as well as it can be done. And there's no good way to do it, because once somebody drops a turd on Brian's site, it's the proverbial elephant (turd?) in the parlor until the mods can jump on it and get things squared away.

You know why I'm not a moderator anymore? Shit like this. It's a crapload of work, and someone's always pissed off at you for some stupid reason or another. Furthermore, if the moderators are "employees," then dammit, I'm calling my lawyer because no paychecks ever showed up in *my* mailbox. Brian for damn sure did show his gratitude to me (and others)in various tangible ways (and I thank him :) ), but "employee...?" Come on. Get real.

Just my 2.

P.S.

Brian, do you have my W-2?

Edited by EricW

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I have been wanting to stay out, but Eric just echoed my sentiments so exactly that I absolutely have to say "+1" to every single word he just posted.

I also have to say that IMHO, when properly weighed, the "body of knowledge" is worth a whole lot more than the "hypothetical concern" in this situation.

Editing restrictions are really a non-issue as the mod staff will take care of any editing requests that may come up as part of their duties and guess what, they will do it gladly whenever they are asked to do it for the right reasons.

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Solution:

Brian, Post a "Must read" rule. I believe you can do it throught the P.M. feature but I'm not that familure with the structure of this forum. Anyway, post a rule that everyone has to read and confirm allowing the forum Owner and his Reps. complete Editor rights to all posts placed herein. If they wish to continue posting then they must confirm, if not then they can read only. If this forum doesn't have the ability then maybe you can post one at the top of every sub-forum. Either way it's your forum and we love it here and enjoy the way it is ran. I even like it when I post some topic that starts a crap-storm (Unintentionally of course) and the moderators allow me the courtesies they do and then close it.

Disclaimer:

I'm not a publisist and I don't play one on T.V. but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

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